The universe.

[Witticism]

There are always three arguments on how the universe came into existence

1.It come from Nothing into something
2.It always existed
3.Created by higher power.
The first one is not possible. Nothing can’t turn into something.
The second is also problematic because if matter always existed, we are saying matter existed without precursor meaning it cause is not known.The last one is the only logic one, the universe was created by higher power is the only one that explains the creation of matter in both cases. I don’t know why it is not this easy to some people

[Samatar10]

*Ahem* I think there is problem there.1 and 3 are the effectively the same.

Let us say there were nothing and the higher power created the universe, then clearly the higher power created something out of nothing.

Let us also say, the was something first and the higher power rearranged the thing into a universe and that cancels out 1 and 3 ( oooops) because it not an act of creation.

So the combination of either 1 and 3 is logically a problem.

[SultanOrder]

Samtr one and three are not the same.

One says there was no cause. Three says there was a cause i.e. God is the first Cause.

1. Whats wrong with one is that nothing without a cause can not come out of nothingness.

3. Makes sense because God caused the universe to come out of nothing, meaning God is neccessary for something to come out of nothing which means God is the first cause.

[Knight of Wisdom]

P-O, I think Samatr has a point here. God created the Universe, so before the Universe was created, it was "nothing", therefore, God has indeed created SOMETHING out of nothing.

Allah says in the Quran, and I'll paraphrase it, "When We want to create something, all we do is say BE and it is".

That itself is showing that Allah can create anything into SOMETHING from nothing.

[Garaad_LQ]

The question is what is "the universe " ? how do you define it ?

[SultanOrder]

KOW it is true that God created the universe out of nothing, meaning there was not the building blocks that existed before it.

What I was trying to illustrate the difference between 1 and 3

[Knight of Wisdom]

KOW it is true that God created the universe out of nothing, meaning there was not the building blocks that existed before it.

What I was trying to illustrate the difference between 1 and 3

Yes, it's very much possible. God doesn't need to have "Building Blocks" to create something as he is Unique.

For instance, how did the "Ruh" came into existence?

[SultanOrder]

I'm not disagreeing with you KOW

[Knight of Wisdom]

I'm not disagreeing with you KOW

So, you agree that Allah can create something out of nothing?

[SultanOrder]

I'm not disagreeing with you KOW

So, you agree that Allah can create something out of nothing?

never said he couldnt

re-read my statements

[NoAngst]

The first one is not possible. Nothing can’t turn into something.

Why not? Didn't Allah create the Universe Ex nihilo (latin for "out of nothing")?

The second is also problematic because if matter always existed, we are saying matter existed without precursor meaning it cause is not known.

Again, why not? Why can't the universe have always existed? Allah always existed.

The last one is the only logic one, the universe was created by higher power is the only one that explains the creation of matter in both cases. I don’t know why it is not this easy to some people

There is two forseeable problems with this. One, it's lazy, dogmatic copout to say Allah/Higher Power created the universe. In fact, you raise more mysteries like who created the Higher Power? Second, scientists want to know HOW the world works and studying the origin of the universe helps this cause. Simply stating Higher Power created the universe doesn't help advance the cause of knowledge.

[Knight of Wisdom]

I'm not disagreeing with you KOW

So, you agree that Allah can create something out of nothing?

never said he couldnt

re-read my statements

Got it.

[Alphanumeric]

Our understanding of matter, energy, and the universe as a whole is changing.
Even so, I side with the third.


But as it was pointed out earlier, your wording is wrong, nullifying the entire discussion. It could use some work.

[Samatar10]

The question is what is "the universe " ? how do you define it ?

The questions should be what is the "high power"? how do you define it?

there fixed it for you. lol

your welcome.

[Samatar10]

The three alternatives made by the original poster are not only misleading but also not the only alternatives.

Take number 3 for instance, it is the same as number 1 because it was God who was number 2(always existed) and then out of nothing created the universe of matter, number 3 fails to mention this as it only assumes God is able to make something from nothing.

Assertion 1 2 and 3 are constructed this way because they fit God mythology so if you accept them you are on the theistic path…. There is unmentioned alternative 4, which is the counter claim of God existence

4. The universe formeda process of natural Laws not yet understood by humans/mankind and then followed the observed rules of science, which everybody easily understands