Tariq Ramadan panel discussion

[union]

Above is a recording of a panel discussion featuring Tariq Ramadan, grandson of Muslim Brotherhood founder Hassan_al-Banna under the title “Secularism, Islam, and Democracy: Muslims in Europe and the West.” It’s the first appearance by professor Ramadan in the United States since having his six year ban on entry lifted by court order.

If you wish to watch the whole discussion, skip to the 17 minute mark.

Otherwise I’ve transcribed the few quotes I found most stimulating below and you may comment based on them.

“We are not here in a host country, we are at home and Islam is a western religion”

“I am a European by culture, Swiss by nationality and Muslim by religion. There is no contradiction”

“It’s not a problem to be an American by culture and Muslim by religion”

“The secular system is to integrate diversity, not exclude it”

“It’s not a religious problem, it’s a socio economic problem needing social policy changes” – In reference to the mass rioting by French Arabs in 2005

“We need a moratorium on stoning”

“We have to open a dialogue in Muslim majority countries about capital punishment, stoning, and execution”

“One of the biggest problems women have had in the Islamic tradition is men”

“The Qur’an was revealed over twenty-three years, and should be and is open to interpretation”

“The Qur’an has to be contextualized. Of course we have fundamentals that will not be changed-the way we pray, the ibadah, and the basic creed. But from the very beginning of the Islamic tradition there has been a critical reading of the scriptural sources.”

“You can disapprove of someone doing something, but you must respect their right to do it. This is the basis of pluralistic society and this is what I tell the Muslims.”

[union]

The discussion left me with many more questions than it answered. Are the ideas being promoted by professor Ramadan actually compatible with Islam? Can democratic ideals, individual liberty, female equality, and so on co-exist with Islam or does the ‘total submission’ of a Muslim to the will of God surrender him/her of those rights which are so valued in the western secular tradition? And speaking of the western world, does the Muslim world even share its ideals? In the lecture professor Ramadan declared himself to be “European by culture”, so has he become biased in favor of western philosophies and lost touch with the realities of the Muslim world?

Personally I feel that Islamic orthodoxy is gaining momentum much faster than the more liberal segments of Muslim society. It’s becoming increasingly common for Muslims to cling onto their “Muslim identity” while rejecting everything else, as if being a Muslim is mutually exclusive to being an American for example. I agree with Ramadan that the war on terror under the Bush administration has really fueled this negative “us vs. them “mentality both in the western world and the Muslim world and this isn’t a benefical disposition for either side. In the Muslim world, Voices like professor Ramadan are being drowned out by much more numerous, much better funded radical figures like the now dead Anwar Alwalki. Ramadan lectures at Oxford and infront of high brow audiences, far away from the average Muslim in the streets of say Cairo for example. I believe it would be a positive to have more voices like him in the Muslim world to moderate the ever more radical public debate, but the question arises: Is Ramadan a legitimate Muslim scholar or just a niche speaker for liberal western audiences?

[AwdalPrince]

Tariq Ramadan is a pseudo Western "scholar" and is viewed,fortunately, as nothing more than an apologist. He has no Islamic scholarly credentials, he has no knowledge on Fiqhul Waqi'iyah (Jurisprudence of the common era), he is by in large a completely unrecognised character in the world of Islam so much so that a Sufi hermit in a cave in India is probably more influential than this guy.

He is no challenge to the supremacy of our scholars who have refuted him and his ideas.

P.S His comments about the Qur'an needing a new interpretation and that laws from the Qur'an should somewhat be reviewed iis in itself an act of disbelief. His views are extreme but thank Allah nobody listens or takes this guy seriously

[ToughGong]

Tariq Ramadan is a pseudo Western "scholar" and is viewed,fortunately, as nothing more than an apologist. He has no Islamic scholarly credentials, he has no knowledge on Fiqhul Waqi'iyah (Jurisprudence of the common era), he is by in large a completely unrecognised character in the world of Islam Islam

A Sufi hermit in a cave in India is probably more influential than this guy.

[Grant]

I was especially impressed with one of his quotes:

“The secular system is to integrate diversity, not exclude it”

His most recent degree is from Al Azhar and he is Professor of Islamic studies at St Antony's college, Oxford. He has been under serious security scrutiny in both France and the US and is considered a controversial figure in the West. That both side distrust him makes him even more intriguing to me. The dude may be onto something:

http://www.investigativeproject.org/profile/111

[Lamagoodle]

Tariq Ramadam - a marxist- is one of the few scholars left worth the name.

Read this:

http://www.bu.edu/religion/files/2010/1 ... ration.pdf

[Adali]

Tariq Ramadan is the best the anti-islamist can offer, as a muslim in a non-muslim country you should accept their rules and take the best option given to you. But Tariq Ramadan is aiming at creating a new universal Islam that will then be exported to every corner of the world, i don't think i like that idea, sure we accept the rules which limits Islam in the western world but why should that be the case in our home countries. I think stoning is a vulgar and it is intended for vulgar people, even the prophet himself didn't like to carry it out, but nevertheless it is a rule and we are a society that follows the rules, so to prohibit it is wrong. There are cases where stoning is carried out illegally that is un-islamically, i think that should be looked into, to stop malpractice, but strong focus should be set on prevention of the crime of adultery, that is research why people do it and make them aware of what God has prepared for those who do it. The Quraan has been studied for a long time, there is no point casting doubt and God said himself it's clear and straightforward, for all people of all times.

Tariq will make it better for us muslims in the west but will challenge and dispute the muslims in the muslim world.

[union]

Tariq Ramadan is a pseudo Western "scholar" and is viewed,fortunately, as nothing more than an apologist. He has no Islamic scholarly credentials, he has no knowledge on Fiqhul Waqi'iyah (Jurisprudence of the common era), he is by in large a completely unrecognised character in the world of Islam so much so that a Sufi hermit in a cave in India is probably more influential than this guy.

He is no challenge to the supremacy of our scholars who have refuted him and his ideas.

P.S His comments about the Qur'an needing a new interpretation and that laws from the Qur'an should somewhat be reviewed iis in itself an act of disbelief. His views are extreme but thank Allah nobody listens or takes this guy seriously

He has studied under several Al-Azhar University scholars in Islamic scholarship, and his Phd is in Islamic studies. He is also Director of the Center for Islamic Legislation and Ethics in Doha, Qatar. Just because you disagree with him doesn't give you the right to dismiss his academic credentials.

True, most of his lectures are in the West, but that's only because of the lack of intellectual freedoms in the Muslim world that has thrown most of it into a relap of the days of jahillya. One of the many reasons why the Islamic golden age was so brilliant was because of the diversity of thought, which the Muslim world now sorely lacks. Perhaps this will change with the movements toward democracy in much of the Arab world.

And, if you don't mind, who are your scholars and when have they refuted Tariq Ramadan? I'd like to see which scholars are against human rights, democracy, female equality, peaceful co-existence...if you would oblige in directing me to them I'd be grateful.

[union]

Tariq Ramadam - a marxist- is one of the few scholars left worth the name.

Read this:

http://www.bu.edu/religion/files/2010/1 ... ration.pdf

Thank you for the link.

[Keyblade]

The discussion left me with many more questions than it answered. Are the ideas being promoted by professor Ramadan actually compatible with Islam? Can democratic ideals, individual liberty, female equality, and so on co-exist with Islam or does the ‘total submission’ of a Muslim to the will of God surrender him/her of those rights which are so valued in the western secular tradition? And speaking of the western world, does the Muslim world even share its ideals? In the lecture professor Ramadan declared himself to be “European by culture”, so has he become biased in favor of western philosophies and lost touch with the realities of the Muslim world?

Personally I feel that Islamic orthodoxy is gaining momentum much faster than the more liberal segments of Muslim society. It’s becoming increasingly common for Muslims to cling onto their “Muslim identity” while rejecting everything else, as if being a Muslim is mutually exclusive to being an American for example. I agree with Ramadan that the war on terror under the Bush administration has really fueled this negative “us vs. them “mentality both in the western world and the Muslim world and this isn’t a benefical disposition for either side. In the Muslim world, Voices like professor Ramadan are being drowned out by much more numerous, much better funded radical figures like the now dead Anwar Alwalki. Ramadan lectures at Oxford and infront of high brow audiences, far away from the average Muslim in the streets of say Cairo for example. I believe it would be a positive to have more voices like him in the Muslim world to moderate the ever more radical public debate, but the question arises: Is Ramadan a legitimate Muslim scholar or just a niche speaker for liberal western audiences?

surprisingly impartial

[grandpakhalif]

I am glad these criminals and propagators of falsehood are confined to obscure lecture halls in the West, while the true scholars spread their knowledge and are heard far and wide.

[FAH1223]

‎"I am very scared that all the business of conferences and lectures is becoming a fashion. We come from one lecture to another to sit one hour and say "okay we are listening." This is consumerism, its not education. Education is to sit with the book of Allah (swt) and to read it every day. Education means to change yourself. Education is to follow in the footsteps of the Prophet (as)." - Dr. Tariq Ramadan

[bareento]

Tarek Ramadan works on Islam in Europe/The west!
That is why his concerns are different from say a muslim egyptian in Cairo...

As for Fundamentalist Islam as ideology to be implemented it failed longtime ago...I would say in the 1990s.
Their incapacity to take power, their incapacity to put into words the grievances of the mass ultimately made them lose their momentum!

Wat we see now under Islamist are the tail of a long gone comet...and some exotic allah akbaists a la Mujahid Granpakhalif.

Nations want freedom people want progress...and Islamists cannot deliver that

B.

[union]

Tariq Ramadan is the best the anti-islamist can offer, as a muslim in a non-muslim country you should accept their rules and take the best option given to you. But Tariq Ramadan is aiming at creating a new universal Islam that will then be exported to every corner of the world, i don't think i like that idea, sure we accept the rules which limits Islam in the western world but why should that be the case in our home countries. I think stoning is a vulgar and it is intended for vulgar people, even the prophet himself didn't like to carry it out, but nevertheless it is a rule and we are a society that follows the rules, so to prohibit it is wrong. There are cases where stoning is carried out illegally that is un-islamically, i think that should be looked into, to stop malpractice, but strong focus should be set on prevention of the crime of adultery, that is research why people do it and make them aware of what God has prepared for those who do it. The Quraan has been studied for a long time, there is no point casting doubt and God said himself it's clear and straightforward, for all people of all times.

Tariq will make it better for us muslims in the west but will challenge and dispute the muslims in the muslim world.

First, he is not calling for a prohibition on stoning but rather a moratorium, which is a temporary lull in the exercise of. The practice of stoning in the contemporary Muslim world has undoubtedly been abused and it's time to reexamine it. For example, from my knowledge, there has to be four witnesses for the punishment to be carried out. Since when did adulterers have a four person audience watch them in their most intimate moment....especially when they are doing it under threat of death? This part of the hudud has been overlooked by zealots who are eager to implement the harshest punishments while overlooking the very rules designed to prevent them from doing so easily. It's like American judges overlooking the mandate that a person must be found "guilty beyond reasonable doubt".

Also for his stance on the Qu'ran, I think there is wisdom in it. The Islamic scripture has already once before been examined, and who has the authority to declare that process over permanently?. Society advances, human intellect grows and everything evolves, and it's important to examine the Qu'ran in the context of contemporary society as a result. The only people who will lose out are those who think the Qu'ran is rigid and hostile to the realities of the modern world.

[FAH1223]

Tariq Ramadan is the best the anti-islamist can offer, as a muslim in a non-muslim country you should accept their rules and take the best option given to you. But Tariq Ramadan is aiming at creating a new universal Islam that will then be exported to every corner of the world, i don't think i like that idea, sure we accept the rules which limits Islam in the western world but why should that be the case in our home countries. I think stoning is a vulgar and it is intended for vulgar people, even the prophet himself didn't like to carry it out, but nevertheless it is a rule and we are a society that follows the rules, so to prohibit it is wrong. There are cases where stoning is carried out illegally that is un-islamically, i think that should be looked into, to stop malpractice, but strong focus should be set on prevention of the crime of adultery, that is research why people do it and make them aware of what God has prepared for those who do it. The Quraan has been studied for a long time, there is no point casting doubt and God said himself it's clear and straightforward, for all people of all times.

Tariq will make it better for us muslims in the west but will challenge and dispute the muslims in the muslim world.

First, he is not calling for a prohibition on stoning but rather a moratorium, which is a temporary lull in the exercise of. The practice of stoning in the contemporary Muslim world has undoubtedly been abused and it's time to reexamine it. For example, from my knowledge, there has to be four witnesses for the punishment to be carried out. Since when did adulterers have a four person audience watch them in their most intimate moment....especially when they are doing it under threat of death? This part of the hudud has been overlooked by zealots who are eager to implement the harshest punishments while overlooking the very rules designed to prevent them from doing so easily. It's like American judges overlooking the mandate that a person must be found "guilty beyond reasonable doubt".

Also for his stance on the Qu'ran, I think there is wisdom in it. The Islamic scripture has already once before been examined, and who has the authority to declare that process over permanently?. Society advances, human intellect grows and everything evolves, and it's important to examine the Qu'ran in the context of contemporary society as a result. The only people who will lose out are those who think the Qu'ran is rigid and hostile to the realities of the modern world.

Very well said.

If you also look in Islamic history, stoning was also very rare. It happened a couple times in the Prophet SAW's time but there was a stretch of hundreds of years where there may have been like a dozen recorded instances of stoning