Who was at fault, Muawiyah or Ali?

[Coldoon]

Historian Yaqubi wrote that Ali had 80,000 men, including 70 Companions who participated in Badr, 70 Companions who took oath at Hudaibia, and 400 prominent Ansars and Muhajirs; while Muawiya had 120,000 Syrians.[2]

Ali (r.a) made couple of attempts at negotiating with Muawiyah (r.a), so no Muslim blood would be spilt. Muawiyah responded with:

Even at this stage, Ali sent three men, viz. Bashir bin Amr bin Mahz Ansari, Saeed bin Qais Hamdani, and Shis bin Rabiee Tamini to Muawiya to induce him to settle for union, accord and coming together. According to Tabari, Muawiya replied that, "Go away from here, only the sword will decide between us."[1]

After such response, Ali was the first to march towards Muawiyah's camp, initiating the civil war, as some might argue.

Seeing that war was inevitable, Ali gathered his forces, and, after at first planning to invade Syria from the North, he attacked directly, marching through the Mesopotamian desert.

The Battle of Siffin was the 2nd Civil War of the Muslims, making the Battle of the Camel was the 1st Fitnah or Civil War and it involved Ali and his supporters against faction led by Talhah (r.a), Al-Zubayr (r.a) and Muhammad's wife, Aisha bint Abu Bakr (r.a).

So, who was really at fault?

[ZubeirAwal]

Ali (Karamullahi waj) was correct, for the prophet said if i am a city, Ali (Karamullahi Waj)is the gate, the man had more 3ilm and that was his special trait amongst the saxabas, he had higher knowledge then the others.

[ZubeirAwal]

I noticed you placed R.A on all the saxabs you mentioned but Ali (Karamullahi waj)himself, why is this?

[Somaliman50]

cali na gar leh, mucaawiya na gar leh, waxaa colaadi kadhex dhaliyey waa khawaarijta, wixii intaas aana ahayn waa isafgarad la'aan kaliya iyo isqabqabsi

[Coldoon]

I noticed you placed R.A on all the saxabs you mentioned but Ali (Karamullahi waj)himself, why is this?

What are you talking about? I played "r.a" on all of them, including Ali.

Karamullahi waji? Lol, talk about innovation.

[Coldoon]

cali na gar leh, mucaawiya na gar leh, waxaa colaadi kadhex dhaliyey waa khawaarijta, wixii intaas aana ahayn waa isafgarad la'aan kaliya iyo isqabqabsi

what is 'na gar leh"? Clearly, the Khawaarij came after the battle of Siffin. They were originally part of Ali's soldiers and after Muawiyah and Ali came to terms, they separated from Ali's camp and accused him of breaking God's oath. What I want to know is during the murder of Uthman and the miscommunications that came with it. Who was at fault?

[Somaliman50]

Ali had his case, and mucaawiyah had his case. Mucaawiyah wanted Magdhow for the death of his relative Cuthmaan ibn caffaan his fellow ummawi kinsmen, when Ali became khaliif he told mucaawiyah that priority was to rectify the affairs of the Muslims waa islaaxul mujtamac, before any of the rebels could be brought to justice for uthmans death. Mucawiyahs camp rejected and thats where the misunderstanding started. When it got heated, Cali sent an envoy to settle for peace and reach a deal with Mucawiyas camp who were in Shaam. Some khawaarij who pretended to be part of Mucaawiyas camp instigated and in the deep night they ambushed the envoy, killing all of them. In the old times, this was a declaration of War so Cali sent his army and thats when the Wars took place. Btw The khawaarij were around even during the time of the rasool calayhi salam many hadiths were narrated about their dangers.

[Coldoon]

Okay, I knew that much. But, do you think either one of them should've submit to the other's will? As for the Kharijites, they do still exist today, no? I heard the Ibadi, or more like I read that the Ibadi people are upholding to the same teachings as the Kharijites.

In the Battle of Nahrawan, the Kharijites were defeated, except 9. Those 9, ultimately spread their teachings, resulting in the assassination of Ali Ibn Abu Talib (R.A). They also send assassins to Muawiyah and another guy, whom I forgot his name.

[Somaliman50]

the battle was already foretold by the rasool, it was a time of fitnah between Muslims and we have to know that humans are not perfect, even the sahaba. Khawaarij have many sects within themselves, some more extreme than others. i know of the xaruuriyiin, xashaashiyiin, cubuudiyiin etc i think the cubuudis (ibadi) are different from the ibadi tribes of Oman the clans of the sultanate of Oman. some khawaarij use to kill women and slit their wombs to rip out the foetus and do all sorts of mutilation. Allahu aclam if they are around today but there was a takfiir wal hijra group in Masar some time in the last century, they use to live in mountains away from the cawaam because they believed everyone was gaal and hence waajib to migrate from if killing them wasnt possible.

[Coldoon]

Yes, I know the Rasuul foretold the Fitnah, but surely, can they both be right? Can't one of them be at fault?

I'd like to learn about the Kharijites. You seem to know about them. What is their current status? How many sects within them exists? Do we have Kharijtes within the Somali people, if yes, does Al Shabab or the Ikhwan (Al Ikhwan Al Islamiya) consitute to be being part of the Kharajites?

I think I just changed the entire subject.

[Colonel]

It isn't for us to say "who was wrong" between those 2 great companions, we are not shia that curse sahaba May Allah protect us from that. They reconciled in the end and from Muawiyah's descendants came a great Muslim empire with a particularly fantastic Caliph - Umar ibn Abdiaziz, great grandson of Mujahid Umar Al Khatab and referred to by the 'ulama as the 5th rightly guided Caliph

[Coldoon]

Wouldn't the overthrow of the Ummayad by the Abbasid be a Fitnah in itself? Also, Colonel, I've read articles that criticized the Ummayad Dynasty and how they have assassinated many great Muslims under order of suspicions. I don't think we're in any scholarly status to discuss the Muslim Empires of the past and their shortcomings, with that said, I hold on to any criticisms or praises I have for any of them, with all due respect.

[Somaliman50]

Some scholars say the war was fitnah and that both camps (the honest members of both camps, that is) were still upon haqq and righteousness and they would have died as shuhada even though they fought each other, because they were defending their own ijtihaad. Others say Ali radiyallah anh was correct, some dispute. Its best to leave this dispute as it is and not fidget over it.

Khawaarij have more problems with aqeedah. They regard minor sins as major kufr and halalize the blood of a Muslim if he comits a minor sin. They are known to be meriful to the enemy but harsh to the Muslims. They also misunderstand tawheed al xaakimiyah. They will tell you one cannot rule as only Allah has xukm. This is what they said to Ali radiyallah anh and what led to their rebellion against him. Some culuma say the khawaarij are not muslims as one can judge from linguistly, khawaarij meaning 'exit' i.e. one who has left the folds of Islam. It was said in a hadith that people with quranic voices and heavy cibaadah will come but Islam will not pass beyond their throats; it is the description of that group. But Some say they are a extremely misguided sect. One thing is for sure though, these guys are dangerous to the Ummah and were the first sect to appear in the time of the rasool calayhi salam. They are the dogs of the hellfire according to a hadith.

AlKhawaarij has no tradition in Somali culture nor history. There have been times of heretical missionaries and extremism, but not to the level of the khawaarij.

the ummawiyiin were a family dynasty and hence, many erred in their leadership such as yaziid ibn mucaawiyah and xajaaj bin yuusuf athaqafi (though both constrast greatly)
the scholars say one can overthrow a leader if it causes the establishment of correct shariah and justice, but not at the expense of the Muslims and their well being, in which otherwise one must be patient instead.

[Colonel]

The Ummayad Caliphate had its fair share of good and bad, it had some bad leaders but also in Umar II (Umar Ibn Abdiaziz ) it probably had the best leader since Rasullulah (saw) and the 4 rightly guided Caliphs. This Caliphate also spread its borders the furthest out and turn itself into a superpower empire. Then te Abbasids came and took over and also had 6 star generals of great status but they weren't able to keep control of their territory like the Ummayad did.

We also had the Cordoba Caliphate (in Spain/North Africa) which was perhaps the most advanced kingdom of all times (bar modern times) and would make the Roman Empire look like current day Somalia.

Finally came the Ottomans also known as the great Turk, the destroyer of Europe and the terrorizer of world fleets. This legendary Empire terminated Byzantime Rome and karbashed all of Europe for 100s of years and only ended around the 1900s.

Islam had a great history and was always a world superpower except for today, is there any doubt that we live in the worst times for Muslims?

[Coldoon]

Ababkar20, that was a good read. Thank you, I surely gained something of benefit. With my lack of knowledge, I believe I can't further comment or even refute to what you have stated. I will definitely look into this furthermore.

Colonel,

You said it at best. Despite the shortcoming of many of the Muslims Empires, such as the Ummayads, Abbasids, Al Andulus, Ayyubids, Ottomans, we still manage to walk on the face of the earth as Muslim, with great history. I agree with you, as Muslims, we're living at the worst times. But, as Humans, we're living in the world's best times. It's a win-win situation, if you ask me.