The Prime Reason for Western failure in Iraq

[gurey25]

The main reason for the failure of the US's Iraq strategy comes from the Stupidity and complete lack of competence by the Neo-Con gang that runs the country.
Contrary to all advice from close allies and seasoned professional soldiers like Colin powell,
the Iraqi Army was dismantled as well the whole governing structure.

This was not done inConquered Nazi Germany or in Japan why was it done in Iraq.
This was the epitome of strategic blindness and comes from the arrogance of these arm chair warriors.

Taking a state whole is superior. Destroying it is inferior to this.

Taking an army whole is superior. Destroying it is inferior to this.

Taking a battalion whole is superior. Destroying it is inferior to this.

Taking a company whole is superior. Destroying it is inferior to this
Sun Tzu

[Steeler [Crawler2]]

Gurey

You are correct that dismantling the Iraqi Army was easily (with the exception of the invasion itself) the dumbest thing we have done there. The Army should definately have been kept intact. It is going to serve it's political master, whoever that master is. That's what armies do.

You are incorrect in asserting that we did not dismantle the German and Japanese armies after WW II. The Imperial Japanese army was dismantled immediately after the war and the Wehrmacht cease to legally exist after the German capitulation. Germany didn't begin to reuibld an Army until a decade latter.

Having said all that, slowly an Iraqi security force is being built and I am confident it will, in about two years time, be able to take over most security functions with minimal help from us.

[Cawar]

"Having said all that, slowly an Iraqi security force is being built and I am confident it will, in about two years time, be able to take over most security functions with minimal help from us"

Mad

Whishfull thinking from your part!!!!


I wish it would be easier as Colin Powell said to your dumb ass president: If you break it you own it(i know he was right), but it isnt that easy in Iraq and to make the matters worst Rumsfield, Cheny and Co. made their own miscalculations, so you are in deep whole and Shiat in Iraq for a long time....good luck, and congrats for destrying a nation just to rebuild it from scratch and with no plan!!!!

[The Law26]

Mad Mac wrote;

“Having said all that, slowly an Iraqi security force is being built and I am confident it will, in about two years time, be able to take over most security functions with minimal help from us.”

Are you out of your fu.cking mind? Two more years, just see this;

telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/23/wirq23.
xml&sSheet+/portal/2005/10/23/ixportaltop.html

A secret British military poll has revealed that:

"45% of Iraqis believe attacks against British and American troops are justified - rising to 65% in Maysan province".

"82% are 'strongly opposed' to the presence of coalition troops"

"less than one percent of the population believes coalition forces are responsible for any improvement in security"

"67% of Iraqis feel less secure because of occupation"

"43% of Iraqis believe conditions for peace and stability have worsened"

"72% do not have confidence in the multi-national(sic) forces"

"82% are 'strongly opposed' to the presence of coalition troops"

Did u read those number 82% of Iraqi's are opposed.

The report goes on to reveal another poll showing that the "general well being of the average Iraqi" is declining. Another two years of Yankee presence, it won’t happen sgt Mad Mac. To save Iraq from itself, the world should immediately think and push ideas of an immediate genuine American exit-plan from Iraq. The question is who can replace them? I would say replace them with Muslim and Arab troops. But would the Arab League or Islamic countries be willing to go in-between Sunni, Shiite and Kurd and assist a fledgling government overcome a bloody-minded insurgency? Can there be a will from those interested sharks and opportunist leaders?

Instead of the Americans and for the sake of Iraq, I for one would welcome both of these organizations taking the lead in overseeing the restoration to normality in Iraq, however, they should strongly deal with those who sing the "civil war opera" including the Iraqi Insurgency, whether or not, they are connected to Al Qaeda, and even members of the Iraqi Government. I believe if they had a better deal, many Sunni Iraqis are in favor of shutting the "opera" down and are hoping for a unified Iraq, and, for the sake of all Iraqi's, I hope they get it. But before that happens there must be found a good honorable exit-plan of the occupying forces in Iraq immediately. ASAP.

[Steeler [Crawler2]]

Cawar
This is the basic reason I think you will see the Sunnis come around - it is in their interest to do so. Walk this dog carefully. The US does not want to, can not, maintain and Army in Iraq indefinately. Sooner or latter, our Army is going to be withdrawn. If the Iraqis do not have political stability and a capable security force by the time that happens, there will be a civil war. This war will pit the Shi'ites and the Kurds against the Sunnis. The Shi'ites and the Kurds currently control most of the arms in the country. They also have access to most of the money and control the oil sources, which give them access to much more. On top of that, they have a much better ability to purchase arms and ammunition, given that they represent the legitimate government of Iraq. That means they don't have to smuggle arms. Up until now, the Iraqi government security forces (and the US forces) have operated with considerable restraint. That is because the US imposes that restraint. But if the US leaves, the restraint associated with it leaves. Shi'ites will retaliate and retaliate big against the Sunni population if it allows insurgents to attack Shi'ites. Same goes for the Kurds. The cards are stacked against the Sunnis and it is in their interest to get on board sooner rather than latter. The fact of the matter is, whether you like it or not, Sunni interests and American interest are the same in this case.

[Cawar]

"If the Iraqis do not have political stability and a capable security force by the time that happens, there will be a civil war. This war will pit the Shi'ites and the Kurds against the Sunnis. The Shi'ites and the Kurds currently control most of the arms in the country"


MM

Not that I whish a civil war on Iraq, but your logic is the same of the Cheney's and the Bush's.........but the Sunnis will overwhelm those Shia's/Kurd's cowards backed by your forces, and their will be mayhem and havoc but I am confident that the Sunni Arbs wil prevail, IFF you MF dont intervene.... Its a matter of personal character and prestige man.


Thats if ever there will be a Civil War.

[gurey25]

Yeah the Sunnis seem to be in realy bad shape.
The Kurds have been recieving training from isreali instructors for a while now.
and the Shittes have thier millitia trained in Iran.

The sunnis are outmanouvered, and outgunned.

Iraq will be shitte thanks to Bush,
and Iran and Isreal are the only winners to come out of this

[Steeler [Crawler2]]

Why would you think the Sunnis would prevail? They are smaller in number, have less access to weapons, and less access to money. There are no factors that are on their side.

[Ducaale004]

[quote="MAD MAC"]Cawar
If the Iraqis do not have political stability and a capable security force by the time that happens, there will be a civil war. This war will pit the Shi'ites and the Kurds against the Sunnis. The Shi'ites and the Kurds currently control most of the arms in the country. They also have access to most of the money and control the oil sources, which give them access to much more. On top of that, they have a much better ability to purchase arms and ammunition, given that they represent the legitimate government of Iraq. .[/quote]


With that said, have you helped the Iraqis or worsened the situation or the sytem of "devide, weakens and rule" is also valid in Iraq.


The sunnis wouldn't go down easily. They have ruled the country over centuries and believe so that it is their divine right to rule Iraq . Sunnis also consider the Shiites to be infidels just like Americans, which justifies their killing .


Besides, the Sunnis are majority in the strategic central towns of Iraq, the heart of the capital. By assigning to them the second privelege status, the sunnis would more so scalate their insurgency than be forced to quell the situation . Ideaologically and economically, They will never ever accept a second role in Iraq and that is the number one miscalculation of U.S policy in Iraq.


Up until today, the draft of Iraq constitution has been a total net loss for the Sunnis and they made crystal clear they shall never ratify it since it guerantees decentralized power =federalism.[code][/code]

[Cawar]

[quote="MAD MAC"]Why would you think the Sunnis would prevail? They are smaller in number, have less access to weapons, and less access to money. There are no factors that are on their side.[/quote]

Why did the the Taliban prevail ???? I hope you are not thinking because of America, cos it aint the truth...

Anyho, I think they will prevail beacuse of Saudi Arabia, Syria, Yemen, Jordan, UAE and even Kuwait whould be supporting a Sunni minortiy in Iraq rather than a Shia majority who's command is Iran((I give anything to see GW's face when that happens in Iraq....what an Oxymoron!!!!!!!!!!)

[Steeler [Crawler2]]

Ducaale
The US did not assign roles. What the US did was facillitate a democratic process. The Sunnis want to control the Iraqi government. That can't happen now. They can either participate in the political process or get left out. The fact is, the "government forces" will control the vast bulk of weaponry, ammunition, access to funding. There is no getting around that. Anyone who thinks that the Sunnis are somehow going to be umbued with some special strength is living in a fantasy land.

[gurey25]

cawar those countries can only provide money, thats all.
Seriously man the sunnis are in deep shit.

Only thing keeping the Kurds well behaved are the Turks
and the shittes are only waiting for the americans to leave so they can
show everyone else who is boss.

[Ducaale004]

Cawar, yes that could be right, oppressing the sunnis might strain America's diplomatic relationship with most of the Sunni Arab countries like Saudi Arabia.


Iran is also taking advantage of the situation by duping Iraq shiite into giving them support for its nuclear ambition.

[Cawar]

"There is no getting around that. Anyone who thinks that the Sunnis are somehow going to be umbued with some special strength is living in a fantasy land."

MM,

We will have to see that. But I am sure i will prove your oxymoron president wrong. Power and ammunition is not everything IFF history teaches us anything.



"cawar those countries can only provide money, thats all.
Seriously man the sunnis are in deep shit. "


Gurey

Maybe....but the whole world is in transition. and besides money is everything, even according to the Americans and the Infidels(well themselves ).

[Ducaale004]

Mad Mac, I do agree the Sunnis should participate the peace process but why America and its allies support federal system to be adopted in Iraq. Why not unitary system or central power-based system? Federalism should be fully disapproved of because that means Sunnis , in the long-term, would be dominated economically and their power will gradually diminish to the point of being ruled .