"Even Jewish military advisors are helping us" Col

[Jeffrey Dahmer]

[quote="Salahuddiin"]Jeffrey

You also said that I cannot say the opposite side is murtaddiin because I'm not qualificated to make statement like this and you are right about that. I didn't mean them all but I said some among them. But same time you can say UIC is khawaarij army based on TFG presented news about few individuals and we don't even know if it's true or not.

If you can make that statement based on that, if we follow your logic can we also claim that everyone of TFG and also your hero Barre Hiiraale is a murtad?[/quote]

Salahuddin, my claim that some of them are Khawarjii is based on their characteristics found amongst the ranks of the ICU. Didn't the Khawarji Cusama bin Laden urge his followers to fight in Somalia against the invaders or are you simply overlooking that fact?

[Salahuddiin]

Jeffrey

You know something? This discussion isn't going anywhere. So you say TFG have right to call kuffaar for their help against "kuffaar" and when we turn it around UIC has the right to call "kuffaar" against the kuffaar so where are we heading? And compare the caqiidah of TFG and UIC and difference is like day and night.

[quote]Didn't the Khawarji Cusama bin Laden urge his followers to fight in Somalia against the invaders or are you simply overlooking that fact?[/quote]

So what? Anyone can say whatever he likes and if there's jihaad, the fact that even ismaaciili calls it a jihaad don't change the fact what is happening on the ground.

Answer from Xassan Daahir Caweys to this audio tape was: "He has his own opinions and he can say what he wants."

[Jeffrey Dahmer]

[quote="Salahuddiin"]Jeffrey

You know something? This discussion isn't going anywhere. So you say TFG have right to call kuffaar for their help against "kuffaar" and when we turn it around UIC has the right to call "kuffaar" against the kuffaar so where are we heading? And compare the caqiidah of TFG and UIC and difference is like day and night.[/quote]

Whether TFG has the right to call the help of the Mushrik against ICU is again disputable but do not attempt to blame and insert Quranic principles that have nothing do with the status-quo to justify a certain Jihadi view. They both have called ajnabi forces and this is why some Culema in Xamar stated that the war is between the TFG and the ICU and it is not to be clasiffied as a Jihad.

[quote]So what? Anyone can say whatever he likes and if there's jihaad, the fact that even ismaaciili calls it a jihaad don't change the fact what is happening on the ground. [/quote]

Cusama Bin Laden has unfortunately a large following in Somalia and this saddens. You have the ICU site qaadisiya glorifying the actions of Cusama bin Laden and what about the bootleg tape of certain ICU soldiers glorifying Cusama bin Laden.

[quote]Answer from Xassan Daahir Caweys to this audio tape was: "He has his own opinions and he can say what he wants."[/quote]

Come on, walaal, do not be gullible. Aweys is the main leader of the ICU, to have him that view reflects the view of the organisation. If he was an ordinary official, then yes, it is his opinion but not the main leader. This is why the ICU went from strong Islamic force to a weak crippled force with people turning against them. Sheikh Sharif Sheikh Axmed is the only man alongside with Sheikh Abu Mansuur fit to dictate the policies of ICU.

You still haven't retracted from your accusation that Col. Barre Hiiraale was fighting for secularism after I presented the evidence that he already ruled with the Shariah prior to the emergence of the ICU.

[Salahuddiin]

Jeffrey

There's no proof about khawaarij ideology of UIC. A person supporting suicide-bombings could be jaahil about that issue but in no way any less muslim than you and me and no one has a right to call that person khawaarij. They haven't made takfiir for people opposing their view to my knowledge.

Usama's urging to his followers to join the jihad doesn't mean anything either. He and many others have also urged people to join jihad in Palestine, iraq, Kashmir, Chechnya, Afghanistan etc. but that doesn't in any way affect the legality of Jihad in those places and I never seen any caalim saying "well, there used to be a righteous jihad but after usama's statement we cancel the jihad." In Lebanon there was also a jihad in summer of 2006 eventhough other party was raafidii shiica.

[quote]You still haven't retracted from your accusation that Col. Barre Hiiraale was fighting for secularism after I presented the evidence that he already ruled with the Shariah prior to the emergence of the ICU.[/quote]

Bro I didn't mean adeerkaa Barre Hiiraale, I meant TFG in general.

[quote]Come on, walaal, do not be gullible. Aweys is the main leader of the ICU, to have him that view reflects the view of the organisation. If he was an ordinary official, then yes, it is his opinion but not the main leader. [/quote]

I don't understand what you mean. To me Caweys's statement sounds like he doesn't care much what Usama said.

[Jeffrey Dahmer]

Salahudiin, you're engaging to circular reasoning by making assertions and excuses for the rampant and proven Khawarij ideology in ICU. I have provided exerpts of evidences from the main leader Aweys confirming the approval of suicide-bombing and yet you disregard it as a mere opinion.

As I have mentioned earlier, the followers of Cusama are widely present in Somalia which is unfortunate. The main ICU site qaadisiya supports him, the public protests in Xamar where you saw individuals carrying banners of Cusama (http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1720000/i ... emo300.jpg)

Excuses have run out walaal and it saddens that you continue to make excuses for such un-Islamic things. You do remember the al-wala' wal-bara concept.

By the way, the Jihad in Lebanon was an invalid Jihad and I remember the Fatawa of the Culema saying that we shouldn't support and join the Rafidis in their "Jihad". Unless you view their "Jihad" as legimate whilst they continue to oppress the Sunnis and revile the Sahabas, then may Allah guide us, amiin.

Here is the advice of Sheikh Fawzan in regard to the "Jihad" in Lebanon:
...ولا يمكن الاجتماع مع الاختلاف في العقيدة وفي المقاصد والأهداف حتى تكون العقيدة سليمة والأهداف موحدة لنصرة الحق وإعلاء كلمة الله وليت الخطباء والوعاظ يركزون في خطبهم ومواعظهم على هذه المعاني مع التنديد بالعدو والمعتدي وبيان مقاصده الخبيثة وأنه لا يقصد إضعاف المسلمين ونزع ثرواتهم فقط وإنما يقصد بالدرجة الأولى فساد عقيدتهم وصرفهم عن دينهم حتى يتسنى له تقطيع أوصالهم. هذا ما أحببت التنبيه عليه حيال هذه النوازل المروعة

Translation:
"So it is not possible to unite whilst there are differences in caqidah and in aims and goals, until the cagidah is correct and the goals are one, namely for the victory of the Haq and the raising of the Word of Allah. If only the preachers and advisors in their speeches and advice would concentrate on these issuesas they are criticising the attacking enemy.

The evil aims of the enemy must be explained and exposed, and that the weakening of the Muslims and the grabbing of their wealth and possessions are not the only intended aims , rather, on a major level it is intended to corrupt their cagidah and cause their turning away from their religion until they have destroyed them to pieces."

He also said that people with different cagidah can not unite under one umbrella and it will only provide distaster in the long run. This is evident in the fast collapse of the ICU. Victory will be given to those with 100% correct Cagidah and manhaj amongst their members and not the ones with corrupt beliefs and some with the correct beliefs, it doesn't work that way. Otherwise, we would be supporting the Hizbiyah

[quote]Bro I didn't mean adeerkaa Barre Hiiraale, I meant TFG in general. [/quote]

And I am not the spokesman and defender of TFG. My post was referring to Col. Barre Hiiraale (topic) and he is not my adeer.

[Salahuddiin]

Jeffrey

I agree this discussion isn't going anywhere. You presented your opinions I presented mine. We can leave it here because this is going in circles.

But still I want to make clear what I mean. Supporting suicide bombing DOES NOT make person a khawaarij, other things do. Are Yusuf Qadarawi and Hamas for example khawaarij? No, something else but not khawaarij nor kaafir.

The proof you gave me of UIC's khawaarijnimo is that some of their supporters like Usama bin Laden and some of the UIC support suicide bombings. That's not enough. Khawaarij is someone who makes takfiir to other muslims and rulers for some xaram thing they do and yet I didn't see anything like that from UIC. And Xasan Dahir Caweys statement let us suppose that he doesn't care much about opinion of Usama.

[quote]By the way, the Jihad in Lebanon was an invalid Jihad and I remember the Fatawa of the Culema saying that we shouldn't support and join the Rafidis in their "Jihad". [/quote]

I didn't talk about supporting Hizbullah, I said that there was a Jihad in Lebanon regardless if there was raafidii shiica fighting or not. Yahuud attacked muslims, killed a lot of people and also many sunni villages were destroyed. Many sunnis fighted against IDF, if shiica is fighting also what does that change? In Iraq some of shiica is fighting against USA, does that invalidate the Jihad for sunnis? No. I never said anything about uniting with raafidii.

If you think that Jihad is legal only when everyone fighting have 100% correct caqiidah and niyah, then there haven't ever been and there won't be Jihad.

Bro it seems to me you are the one here making takfiir to people. I never heard anyone saying muslim is a kaafir if he supports suicide-bombing. That is jaahiliyah, not kufr.

[Jeffrey Dahmer]

[quote="Salahuddiin"]
But still I want to make clear what I mean. Supporting suicide bombing DOES NOT make person a khawaarij, other things do. Are Yusuf Qadarawi and Hamas for example khawaarij? No, something else but not khawaarij nor kaafir. [/quote]

You're not paying attention walaal. I said it is the characteristic of the neo-Khawaraji. And it is not only suicide-bombing, but the uncessary takfir such as at-Turki calling Col. Barre Hiiraale, after capturing Kismayoo, a Munafiq.

[quote]The proof you gave me of UIC's khawaarijnimo is that some of their supporters like Usama bin Laden and some of the UIC support suicide bombings. That's not enough. Khawaarij is someone who makes takfiir to other muslims and rulers for some xaram thing they do and yet I didn't see anything like that from UIC. And Xasan Dahir Caweys statement let us suppose that he doesn't care much about opinion of Usama. [/quote]

Walaal, it would have been better for you to claim ignorance in the subject of Khawarij than to utter such statements since Khawarij has many sub-sects just like the Raafidis. Who said that Khawarij is confided to unrequired takfir. Khawarij includes those who incite rebellions and invasions (eg, the Kismayoo takeover).

In the treatise Al-Masa'il-ul-Muntaqat min Sifat al-Khawarij-ul-Ghulat (Selected Examples from the Characteristics of the Extremist Khawarij) by bin Cali Al-Furaydan, he writes:

"The Twenty-First Characteristic: They shed unlawful blood – whether their own by way of suicide or others by transgressing against them by way of murder. "

"The Fifty-Eighth Characteristic: They kill themselves in suicide operations basing that on false arguments."

He writes in the preface:

"And it is also beneficial since today, the ways and ideologies of the Khawarij are prevalent, as can be seen in terrorist acts, suicide missions, assassinations and political strife."

Here is the link to the e-book http://www.al-ibaanah.com/cms/pdf_files/64.pdf


[quote] I didn't talk about supporting Hizbullah, I said that there was a Jihad in Lebanon regardless if there was raafidii shiica fighting or not. Yahuud attacked muslims, killed a lot of people and also many sunni villages were destroyed. Many sunnis fighted against IDF, if shiica is fighting also what does that change? In Iraq some of shiica is fighting against USA, does that invalidate the Jihad for sunnis? No. I never said anything about uniting with raafidii.

If you think that Jihad is legal only when everyone fighting have 100% correct caqiidah and niyah, then there haven't ever been and there won't be Jihad. [/quote]

Yes, the Ahlus-Sunnah are obligated to defend themselves according to their ability without supporting the Raafidis in their call. But unfortunately, many young ignorant youth have joined the Raafidis in their call which promoted the Culema to issue fatawa. But let us go back to main question, since ICU has many ideological difference in their midst is their Jihad valid then according to Sheikh Fawzan, no since if one wants to wage Jihad, it has to be with those with the manhaj and Cagidah.

[quote]Bro it seems to me you are the one here making takfiir to people. I never heard anyone saying muslim is a kaafir if he supports suicide-bombing. That is jaahiliyah, not kufr.[/quote]

La xawla wala quwata ilaa bilah, are we now starting to accuse one another of Takfir? What part of characteristic don't you get it. The permitance of suicide-bombing is PART of an ideology and not an ideology itself, it is PART of the characterstics of Khawaraji.

So far, I have established several characteristics:

Allowing suicide-bombings
Takfir
Hastiness in applying rulings
Advocating for rebellions
They do not hold that an oppressive ruler has the right to leadership.
They glorify the main “Kharijite in the contempary age (i.e. Bin Laden)

Fact of the matter is, there are some ICU individuals who confirm to these characteristics without mentioning any names.

Salahudiin, walaal, I trust that you are a sincere brother who really is passionate about the Diin but do not advocate acts that are contrary to Islam, walaal. Victory is given to those who deserve it. The ICU initialy had the right goal and the best leadership but it went down once Aweys assumed leadership and started attacking Kismayoo. Just because someone proclaims Jihad or calls in the name of Islam, doesn't mean we pledge unconditional support, rather we assess and praise if he performs Islamic actions and condemn if not. Allah (tacala) has rewarded the movement with victory in Xamar when combatting against the warlords and this is manifest proof that Victory is given to those establish the Truth and reject those with different cagidah.

See how fast the ICU emerged and how fast they went out. This is because the thug Indacade has confirmed the second condition of defeat which is explained by the late Sheikh ibn Uthaymin (RH):

"Taking pride in one's self, power, greatness in numbers, or material strength."

Further, there were already internal differences in the organisation and the Sheikh talks about this by saying:

"Disunity and differing. Allah tacala said:

"Do not dispute and [thus] lose courage and [then] your strength would depart." [Al-Anfal (8):46]

"Allah clarified in His book these three causes of defeat so that people be warned about them. In the battle of Uhud, disobedience, dissension and disagreement occurred among some Muslims, and it led to their defeat."

The wisdom in this is that servants should know that victory is from Allah tacala and that it is not achieved only by having the means for victory and by vanquishing the enemy, especially when the servant is being proud and is forgetting that all matters happen only by the permission of Allah, and that the servant, when he relies on his strength, is entrusted to his weakness and feebleness. Therefore, since these three matters - negligence with regards to the rights of Allah, conceitedness and dissension and differing - are from the causes of defeat, it is obligatory for armies of the sincere to ponder these causes and how they brought about their defeat, and then end that disease, so that the final outcome be good."

See Causes of Victory and Defeat by the Sheikh at:
http://www.islaam.net/main/display.php? ... ategory=13

[Gedo_Boy]

All you have to do is look @ who started this thread.

[Salahuddiin]

BarakAllah fiik walaal let's stop here. I've stated my opinion and you stated yours and I respect that as much as my own. I have nothing else to add what I didn't say before and still I don't classify a person a khawaarij if he fills couple of conditions. I know there won't be a perfect human being nor a perfect jamaacat and I will support him who seems sincere and has good intentions and not major stains in caqiidah and I won't stop that support even if he makes mistakes because that's only humane and the greatest muslims who ever lived also made mistakes.

May Allah guide every muslim to the right path, aamiin.

[Jeffrey Dahmer]

Amiin

[Gedo_Boy]

Amiin,

If Somalis can't listen to each other respectfully, this will be the outcome everytime.