Black Hawk Down Video: Did the USC defeated the Americans?

[Twisted_Logic]

[quote="Voltage"][quote="Twisted_Logic"][quote="Voltage"]I clearly said interviewed and if you have ever watched the black down documentary on the History Channel, you will also see interviews with the people he interviews in his book and footage of him in Somalia also.[/quote]

Voltage,

we all know the guy hasnt been on the ground long enough to write a book about it. His asserations are more like senators going to foreign countries and making irrational claims such that they have been to country x and know their culutre and bla bla. The guy has written a book called Guests of the Ayatullah, the book like BHD is full of crap.[/quote]


The book is consistent with what is written in the archives of the American military history. A dishonest hoax would have made someone jump a long ago seeing as how the book became an international best seller with a multi-million movie deal.[/quote]

Come on now, Ayan Hersi's Infidel was a best-seller. what does that prove? People like to read what they want to read.

[Shirib]

[quote="Voltage"]And who provides the U.N dues? Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing[/quote]

It was fro a broad base of the world. The U.S did not provide it all or even a great majority but they sure did a good job of wasting it.


[quote="Luq_Ganane"]Wallahi I'm not even hating on anybody laakin Somalis sometimes view things from distorted mindsets. The civilized world analyzes battles based on collective collateral damage, laakin Somalis still have the Jaahil minset that a friggin 55-1 ratio in American-Somali deaths during that conflict is cause for celebration. Are American lives more important than Somali lives?[img][/img][/quote]

The U.S themselves said it was a military defeat.

[AbdiWahab252]

Viva the Habar Gidir Warriors of the USC-SNA !

At least were are not like some residents of North Mogadishu who burned the Somali flags (because HG were waving Somali flags at SNA rallies) in front of the Italian peacekeepers while waving UN flags.

The Italians were stunned and asked if these people were Somalis.

To the rest of the haters, we are all going to die better with honor than as cowards.

If HG lost on October 3rd, they would have been annihilated by their enemies, Hawiye and Darood. HG would have gone down the road of the defeated Somali tribes and became midgo.

[Voltage]

[quote="Twisted_Logic"][quote="Luq_Ganane"]Wallahi I'm not even hating on anybody laakin Somalis sometimes view things from distorted mindsets. The civilized world analyzes battles based on collective collateral damage, laakin Somalis still have the Jaahil minset that a friggin 55-1 ratio in American-Somali deaths during that conflict is cause for celebration. Are American lives more important than Somali lives?[img][/img][/quote]

When viewed from the fact that these 18 and countless others wounded and four helis being knocked down from the air, belonged to a secretive org such as the Delta Force and Rangers it is a quite military accomplishment. The americans failed to accomplish their main objectives which were to arrest or kill ringleaders such as aunti abdi-qaybdid and others. Instead they killed innocent bystanders and few months later Aideed was flyin in american heli piloted by american pilots. If that is not a spectacular military then i have no idea what is.[/quote]


Again, Delta Force are personallel who are NOT trained for conventional combat. They are specifically trained for short, snatch missions. They are trained to fight under the scenes not in a two million hostile city where everyone was armed and you were snipped at from everywhere. Even so, only 18 of them died and a 1000 Somalis and somehow people have heroified it to something it most certainly is not. I mean, are we that desperate for some pride??

[Twisted_Logic]

[quote="AbdiWahab252"]Viva the Habar Gidir Warriors of the USC-SNA !

At least were are not like some residents of North Mogadishu who burned the Somali flags (because HG were waving Somali flags at SNA rallies) in front of the Italian peacekeepers while waving UN flags.

The Italians were stunned and asked if these people were Somalis.

To the rest of the haters, we are all going to die better with honor than as cowards.

If HG lost on October 3rd, they would have been annihilated by their enemies, Hawiye and Darood. HG would have gone down the road of the defeated Somali tribes and became midgo.[/quote]

I think with Abdi-qaydiid and his nephews feasting on the Cey, and taking orders from Abdullahi Yusuf to kill his own people, it is pretty clear that you are dying a coward's death!

[Voltage]

[quote="Twisted_Logic"][quote="Voltage"][quote="Twisted_Logic"][quote="Voltage"]I clearly said interviewed and if you have ever watched the black down documentary on the History Channel, you will also see interviews with the people he interviews in his book and footage of him in Somalia also.[/quote]

Voltage,

we all know the guy hasnt been on the ground long enough to write a book about it. His asserations are more like senators going to foreign countries and making irrational claims such that they have been to country x and know their culutre and bla bla. The guy has written a book called Guests of the Ayatullah, the book like BHD is full of crap.[/quote]


The book is consistent with what is written in the archives of the American military history. A dishonest hoax would have made someone jump a long ago seeing as how the book became an international best seller with a multi-million movie deal.[/quote]

Come on now, Ayan Hersi's Infidel was a best-seller. what does that prove? People like to read what they want to read.[/quote]

First you came off to me as smart, but then lately I have realized I gravely over-estimated you. Ayan Hersi wrote a personal biography whereas Black Hawk Down is a research of recent military action where the people who partook in it are alive and accounts of it are permanently written in media prints and American military history. Somehow if this guy tried to pull a fast one, someone would not see a contradiction between what he wrote and what is written elsewhere? Ridiculous

[Voltage]

[quote="Twisted_Logic"][quote="AbdiWahab252"]Viva the Habar Gidir Warriors of the USC-SNA !

At least were are not like some residents of North Mogadishu who burned the Somali flags (because HG were waving Somali flags at SNA rallies) in front of the Italian peacekeepers while waving UN flags.

The Italians were stunned and asked if these people were Somalis.

To the rest of the haters, we are all going to die better with honor than as cowards.

If HG lost on October 3rd, they would have been annihilated by their enemies, Hawiye and Darood. HG would have gone down the road of the defeated Somali tribes and became midgo.[/quote]

I think with Abdi-qaydiid and his nephews feasting on the Cey, and taking orders from Abdullahi Yusuf to kill his own people, it is pretty clear that you are dying a coward's death! [/quote]

[Shirib]

[quote="Voltage"]Again, Delta Force are personallel who are NOT trained for conventional combat. They are specifically trained for short, snatch missions. They are trained to fight under the scenes not in a two million hostile city where everyone was armed and you were snipped at from everywhere. Even so, only 18 of them died and a 1000 Somalis and somehow people have heroified it to something it most certainly is not. I mean, are we that desperate for some pride??[/quote]

More Vietnames died in the Vietnam war so it was an American victory?

Russia lost more lives then Germany so Russia wasn't a World War 2 victor?

Delta Force are the best trained military in the World and they were embarrassed by a rag tag militia

[Twisted_Logic]

[quote="Voltage"][quote="Twisted_Logic"][quote="Luq_Ganane"]Wallahi I'm not even hating on anybody laakin Somalis sometimes view things from distorted mindsets. The civilized world analyzes battles based on collective collateral damage, laakin Somalis still have the Jaahil minset that a friggin 55-1 ratio in American-Somali deaths during that conflict is cause for celebration. Are American lives more important than Somali lives?[img][/img][/quote]

When viewed from the fact that these 18 and countless others wounded and four helis being knocked down from the air, belonged to a secretive org such as the Delta Force and Rangers it is a quite military accomplishment. The americans failed to accomplish their main objectives which were to arrest or kill ringleaders such as aunti abdi-qaybdid and others. Instead they killed innocent bystanders and few months later Aideed was flyin in american heli piloted by american pilots. If that is not a spectacular military then i have no idea what is.[/quote]


Again, Delta Force are personallel who are NOT trained for conventional combat. They are specifically trained for short, snatch missions. They are trained to fight under the scenes not in a two million hostile city where everyone was armed and you were snipped at from everywhere. Even so, only 18 of them died and a 1000 Somalis and somehow people have heroified it to something it most certainly is not. I mean, are we that desperate for some pride??[/quote]

It is not about pride. it is about facts. In military terms failure means not being able to accomplish your abjectives. and by all accounts they have failed to accomplish objectives and as i sadi aideed being on american heli proves the point. thousands of bystanders died no doubt but it is besides the point. it doesnt take away the fact that the americans did not know what hit them.

[Twisted_Logic]

[quote="Shirib"][quote="Voltage"]Again, Delta Force are personallel who are NOT trained for conventional combat. They are specifically trained for short, snatch missions. They are trained to fight under the scenes not in a two million hostile city where everyone was armed and you were snipped at from everywhere. Even so, only 18 of them died and a 1000 Somalis and somehow people have heroified it to something it most certainly is not. I mean, are we that desperate for some pride??[/quote]

More Vietnames died in the Vietnam war so it was an American victory?

Russia lost more lives then Germany so Russia wasn't a World War 2 victor?

Delta Force are the best trained military in the World and they were embarrassed by a rag tag militia[/quote]

Exactly! Russia killed more afghanis and even burned whole towns to the ground as "collective punishement," but in the end does that change the fact that they lost? i dont think so!

[Twisted_Logic]

[quote="Voltage"][quote="Twisted_Logic"][quote="Voltage"][quote="Twisted_Logic"][quote="Voltage"]I clearly said interviewed and if you have ever watched the black down documentary on the History Channel, you will also see interviews with the people he interviews in his book and footage of him in Somalia also.[/quote]

Voltage,

we all know the guy hasnt been on the ground long enough to write a book about it. His asserations are more like senators going to foreign countries and making irrational claims such that they have been to country x and know their culutre and bla bla. The guy has written a book called Guests of the Ayatullah, the book like BHD is full of crap.[/quote]


The book is consistent with what is written in the archives of the American military history. A dishonest hoax would have made someone jump a long ago seeing as how the book became an international best seller with a multi-million movie deal.[/quote]

Come on now, Ayan Hersi's Infidel was a best-seller. what does that prove? People like to read what they want to read.[/quote]

First you came off to me as smart, but then lately I have realized I gravely over-estimated you. Ayan Hersi wrote a personal biography whereas Black Hawk Down is a research of recent military action where the people who partook in it are alive and accounts of it are permanently written in media prints and American military history. Somehow if this guy tried to pull a fast one, someone would not see a contradiction between what he wrote and what is written elsewhere? Ridiculous[/quote]

sxb, did you even read BHD? the damn book is failed synopsis on american involvment in somalia and a far cry from actual research on why the american military failed in somalia. here are the facts abou the book:
1) The book has a distinctive style: Bowden is a journalist, not a historian and wrote his account of the battle as a narrative, rather like a fiction novel but recounting actual events.

2) The book is based on a series of articles written by Bowden for The Philadelphia Inquirer. In 2001 a film adaptation directed by Ridley Scott was released.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hawk_Down_%28book%29

To claim the book is an actual military research is laughable!

ps

I never claimed that i was smart or better than any-one else or you for that matter. I really dont think i dictate my life based on your opinion about me

[Voltage]

Child-grade arguments, we have to be on the same wave length people. We have to look at things from the same reference, others you will never understand my superior lookout point.

For one the United States had no significant national interest in Somalia, if any, beyond a new showing of the "New World Order" that came to exist after the collapse of the Soviet Union. This is primarily why they even went into Somalia, only to help the Somali people received the humanitarian assistance they were given which was being stolen and pocketed by Caydiid and his cronies. This mostly why the Raxaweyn people starved after Caydiid used the food donated to them as capital.

Now this occurred, and after the fiasco, the U.S who had NO national interest in Somalia to begin with left. As soon as the incident happened, as the Marines made way back to the Stadium, 4 American warships lined Mogadishu's harbor and the American military was getting ready for an assault INTO the city but were told by Secretary of State Sandy Burger to stand down because they would withdraw altogether.

The other side lost the moral war, as the Americans wanted to arrest culprits who were killing their own people, and they lost the military fight after the casualty rate became 100-1, with couple convoys of American marines NOT trained to fight urban, conventional combat in a hostile fully armed city of over 2 million.

What victory do you see? This is has nothing do with Vietnam where the American mission was to take over the northern part but could not do so, this had nothing to do with their national interest and so left even when they had no military reason for doing so.


Twisted-

This is why I said I greatly overestimated your worth. If none of your college professors accept Wikipedia, what makes you think you could use it with me?

---"The basic outline of the battle was already well-known when Bowden began his research in 1997."---

---"However, the story is no one-sided affair. Bowden deserves credit for taking the time--and the risks involved--to travel to Mogadishu, where he interviewed many Somalis who fought in or witnessed the battle."---

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-54367640.html


---"Journalist Mark Bowden uses official papers, radio transcripts, and interviews with survivors to tell the detailed story of what happened during that operation, right down to the actual dialogue. He uses many written accounts of Delta Force soldiers and had direct interviews with a couple others. He also interviewed numerous Rangers that were part of the task force. In his book, Bowden cleared up any misunderstandings in the mission that were conveyed through other authors that wrote on the subject. He does this though recorded conversations of the battle, the recorded aerial footage and an oral interview of General William F. Garrison who commanded Task Force Ranger. Bowden says, “None of the men…had a complete vision of the battle. But, their memories, combined with this documentary material, including a precise chronology, and the written accounts of the Delta operators and SEALS, made it possible for me to reconstruct the whole picture.”(344-345) In short, the book serves as a fairly accurate description of the battle."---

http://www.echeat.com/essay.php?t=30535



Again, ridiculous discussion.

[Twisted_Logic]

Voltage,


Let’s rearticulate in a simple approach. First let’s define what failure is:

failure
noun

1. an act that fails; "his failure to pass the test"
2. an event that does not accomplish its intended purpose; "the surprise party was a complete failure" [ant: success]

3. lack of success; "he felt that his entire life had been a failure"; "that year there was a crop failure" [ant: success]


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/failure

Now, let’s chart what the American objectives were:
1) Disruption of Aideed’s military power
2) The arrest of his key colonels such as Abd-Qaybdid and others
3) To portray the American Military as a keeper of a new world order guaranteeing the stability and peace of the world. In essence, a world police man, and after the Gulf War, to again portray the American military (and America naturally) as a friend of the Islamic world.

The out-come

1) The American military failed to capture Aideed or his key generals such as Abd-Qaybdid and others, and has failed to disrupt Aideed’s warlord network
2) Peace could not be restored to Somalia, America and the UN left Somalia in the same sadistic state as they have came.
3) American military was seen as a bully by a majority of the Islamic World.
4) The incident exposed American military’s failure to fight effectively in an urban setting.

Furthermore, Bowden and others like him such as Tom Freidman are notorious for using narratives provided by few individuals as the basis of their work which they present to Western audiences as a first-hand account. In addition, judging by his work such as Guests of the Ayatollah were Bowden pursues the same failed tactic of interviewing certain and selective individuals to prove a point or a theory he is pursuing-in this case the demonization of the Iranian regime. Besides, the book is written from an American perspective and naturally it overlooks the over-all picture of the ground. Again, I have no problem with your assertion that he used individuals on the ground for his book, but I was disputing the ridiculous claim you made that BHD is a “military research” when the fact as your so-called sources have proved that it was a simple account of what has happened written as narrative and written as a fiction novel.

Ps.

I don’t think your professors will be pleased if they come to know you are using sites such as echeat.com as a source!

[Shirib]

Voltage I'm not getting you here.The U.S military said it was collosal failure why are you saying other wise.

[Voltage]

Shirib, it was a failure for the Americans was it a victory for Somalis? The Americans was not there as an imperialist wanting to colonize Somalia, in fact what would they have gained from Somalia except another mouth to feed? They were trying to get murderous thugs who were using humanitarian food to starving Somalis as pure hard capital. I do not see where this misconceived victory you are rooting for comes from.