Somali flag flying high in downtown Caabudwaaq, Ohio.

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Dhaga Bacayl
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Re: Somali flag flying high in downtown Caabudwaaq, Ohio.

Post by Dhaga Bacayl »

Voltage wrote:
Dhaga Bacayl wrote:Yaan lays habaarin saaxiib. :lol:

I never said Cagdheer are my reer abti....I think you seeing dead people.
Ogaadeen waa dawlad sxb, waa Jamhuuriyad cidii habaar u qaadato waa cid been isku sheegtey but I was under the impression waa reer abtiga so move on. You did write a discussion I was part of once that Darood is your abti and I believe you said Ogaden but if you didn't hadee ka bood
Waa maxay qasabka intaa leegi saaxiib. Ogaadeen aren't my reer abti THANK GOD.
:lol:

BTW, I didn't know darood was only ogaadeen....
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Re: Somali flag flying high in downtown Caabudwaaq, Ohio.

Post by Voltage »

Twisted_Logic wrote:
I believe that federalism is the best thing for the Somali people if we are to survive as a nation in the community of nations.

It is utterly stupid to say that the only system that can work in Somalia is tyranny whether it manifests itself as communist/socialist or in religious manifestations.

The Somali people are capable of embracing democracy and egalitarian system of governance where peoples' rights and freedom are respected.

Somalia during the 60s and today's Puntland and Somaliland, albeit not truly democratic, are case in points.
Don't delude yourself sxb. Federalism is a manifestation of the clan problem beautified with "organization by regionalization" when regions = clans in the reality! It will never be possible for a Marehan in Gedo, Jubbaland State to move to Togdheer, Somaliland State and feel a "regional loyalty" to Togdheer as his new adopted state the same way an American can pack up and move from New Hampshire to Washington state and become and feel a "Washingtonian". It is not possible, federalism is only a manifestation of the clan position not to even get to how federal power is going to be shared considering people are not only going to fight for "state" rights but what they believe are their very personal clan/ethnic/individual and group rights when it is just a matter between state and government.

We are not ready for that, our people are not educated enough or enlightened enough to run in highly developed system such as federalism.

Also what democracy? There were over a 100 political parties along clan lines in 1967 and that was at a time when Somalis were still very ignorant and illterate unaware people. What democracy will function as a democracy today when clan feelings are heightened and you have hundreds of versions of media along even village lines? What democracy do you see in Putnland? Who votes? Couple guys are in a "parliament" not chosen by the people but hand-picked, yes hand-picked who trade around one of the Maxamaed Saleebaans and everyone else is ignored and what democracy in Somaliland? Cigaal was sitting in his seat for life not having been chosen by anyone and it is well known how the last "election" went and this one has been post-poned for a year now.

I truly believe in the present time, the only system that can bring back the Somali state is an Islamic oriented system. Not ncessarily Al Shabaab but an Islamic oriented system because Islam is the only thing that makes a Somali sane and civilized and bring him out of his stubber and stubbornness.
Last edited by Voltage on Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Somali flag flying high in downtown Caabudwaaq, Ohio.

Post by Voltage »

Dhaga Bacayl wrote:
Waa maxay qasabka intaa leegi saaxiib. Ogaadeen aren't my reer abti THANK GOD.
:lol:

BTW, I didn't know darood was only ogaadeen....
Yaa ku baneeyey inaad Ogaadeen wax ka sheegtid? adiguna waad sii daldalmaysaa aniguna qoriga baan diyaarsaday!
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Re: Somali flag flying high in downtown Caabudwaaq, Ohio.

Post by Dhaga Bacayl »

Voltage wrote:
Dhaga Bacayl wrote:
Waa maxay qasabka intaa leegi saaxiib. Ogaadeen aren't my reer abti THANK GOD.
:lol:

BTW, I didn't know darood was only ogaadeen....
Yaa ku baneeyey inaad Ogaadeen wax ka sheegtid? adiguna waad sii daldalmaysaa aniguna qoriga baan diyaarsaday!
8-) it's all good.
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Re: Somali flag flying high in downtown Caabudwaaq, Ohio.

Post by Voltage »

Next time haygu hor caayin Jamhuuriyada Ogadeen. Aniguba Habar Awal waxba kama sheego agtaada :lol: :lol:
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Re: Somali flag flying high in downtown Caabudwaaq, Ohio.

Post by Dhaga Bacayl »

Kaalay ila muran... :lol:
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Re: Somali flag flying high in downtown Caabudwaaq, Ohio.

Post by Voltage »

I'll pass my friend :lol: :arrow:
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Re: Somali flag flying high in downtown Caabudwaaq, Ohio.

Post by Twisted_Logic »

Voltage wrote:
Don't delude yourself sxb. Federalism is a manifestation of the clan problem beautified with "organization by regionalization" when regions = clans in the reality! It will never be possible for a Marehan in Gedo, Jubbaland State to move to Togdheer, Somaliland State and feel a "regional loyalty" to Togdheer as his new adopted state the same way an American can pack up and move from New Hampshire to Washington state and become and feel a "Washingtonian". It is not possible, federalism is only a manifestation of the clan position not to even get to how federal power is going to be shared considering people are not only going to fight for "state" rights but what they believe are their very personal clan/ethnic/individual and group rights when it is just a matter between state and government.
That is not necessarily bad. I grew up in a federalist Pakistan divided into 4 provinces, each province inhabited by a specific ethnic group. During my stay, I have never seen a Balochi or Sindhi. A Punjabi is almost unheard of in Balochistan, Sindh and NWFP and vice versa. The point of federalism is not to intermingle and sing songs of unity and other shyt. The fundamental reason for federalism is to protect the interests of the people and give them a reason to feel empowered in an environment where they feel that they are in control. Clans in Somalia serve the same purposes as ethnic groups in other countries. Hence, it is futile to ignore the dynamics and relevancy of clan. In fact, it can be argued that the lack of proper discernment of clan dynamics is the basal reason for Somalia's failure as a state and the collapse of the Somali project that was initiated in 1960.
Voltage wrote: We are not ready for that, our people are not educated enough or enlightened enough to run in highly developed system such as federalism.

Also what democracy? There were over a 100 political parties along clan lines in 1967 and that was at a time when Somalis were still very ignorant and illterate unaware people. What democracy will function as a democracy today when clan feelings are heightened and you have hundreds of versions of media along even village lines? What democracy do you see in Putnland? Who votes? Couple guys are in a "parliament" not chosen by the people but hand-picked, yes hand-picked who trade around one of the Maxamaed Saleebaans and everyone else is ignored and what democracy in Somaliland? Cigaal was sitting in his seat for life not having been chosen by anyone and it is well known how the last "election" went and this one has been post-poned for a year now.
Corruption, ignorance/illiteracy, manipulation, injustice and all sorts of social ills will manifest themselves in the short and intermediate terms. The beautiful thing about democracy is that it is a self-correcting mechanism. The largest democracy in the world, suffers from the very same fears that we have of federalism and clan/ethnic empowerment. Mosques are being burned down in India, because some Hindu god is supposedly buried there and communal wars are instigated because a Muslim villager decides to slaughter a cow in Southern India.

In the long-run, people will learn and correct their errors and learn from their mistakes.

The problems faced by Somalia's experimentation/flirtation with democracy is not unique and is in fact exemplary compared to other countries that have flirted with democracy; India being a good example.
Voltage wrote:I truly believe in the present time, the only system that can bring back the Somali state is an Islamic oriented system. Not ncessarily Al Shabaab but an Islamic oriented system because Islam is the only thing that makes a Somali sane and civilized and bring him out of his stubber and stubbornness.
Any quick-fix to Somalia's problems doesn't exist and will prove to be counterproductive. I have my own views of religion and politics and so it would be pointless to restate here once again. However, understand that any system that we choose must empower the people and be transparent, just and equal opportunity provider.

The idea that the Somali people are not fit to decide their future has given us despots of all colors.
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Re: Somali flag flying high in downtown Caabudwaaq, Ohio.

Post by Voltage »

That is not necessarily bad. I grew up in a federalist Pakistan divided into 4 provinces, each province inhabited by a specific ethnic group. During my stay, I have never seen a Balochi or Sindhi. A Punjabi is almost unheard of in Balochistan, Sindh and Balochistan and vice versa. The point of federalism is not to intermingle and sing songs of unity and other shyt. The fundamental reason for federalism is to protect the interests of the people and give them a reason to feel empowered in an environment where they feel that they are in control. Clans in Somalia serve the same purposes as ethnic groups in other countries. Hence, it is futile to ignore the dynamics and relevancy of clan. In fact, it can be argued that the lack of proper discernment of clan dynamics is the basal reason for Somalia's failure as a state and the collapse of the Somali project that was initiated in 1960.
I am very surprosed at you Twisted. You completely misunderstand the nature of clans as it exists in Somali culture and I did not expect you to. Clans are no way shape or form comparable to tribal relations as it exists in Pakistan or Kenya or anywhere else. Somali clans do not have a bottom, they do not have a point with which you can settle to the lowest common denominator that still attempts to provide a unitary organization of any or peoples that are housed under that umbrella. Have you never heard the idiom "my nation and I against the world, my clan and I against my nation, my sub-clan and I against my clan, my family and I against my sub-clan, me against my family". Unlike tribes, Somali clans do not have a lowest common denominator that stills keeps the clan identity rooted, functioning, and relevant!!! Basically federalism in its form in Pakistan or Kenya or any other tribal entity is not compatible with Somali relations of shifting alliances and banding and fracturing sub-sub-sub nucleaus based on the interest as it comes down to even the individual.

Twisted I hardly get surprised but I am very surprised you of all people do not understand this very volatile and highly erratic nature of Somali clan dynamics. :x
Corruption, ignorance/illiteracy, manipulation, injustice and all sorts of social ills will manifest themselves in the short and intermediate terms. The beautiful thing about democracy is that it is a self-correcting mechanism. The largest democracy in the world, suffers from the very same fears that we have of federalism and clan/ethnic empowerment. Mosques are being burned down in India, because some Hindu god is supposedly buried there and communal wars are instigated because a Muslim villager decides to slaughter a cow in Southern India.

In the long-run, people will learn and correct their errors and learn from their mistakes.

The problems faced by Somalia's experimentation/flirtation with democracy is not unique and is in fact exemplary compared to other countries that have flirted with democracy; India being a good example.
You can blind yourself to the reality sxb. I have never read anywhere that is similar to our stint with democracy. Over a hundred clan based political groups and corruption with the "ina adeer culture" manifested in the highest powers. Again, very few societies in the world are similar to us when it comes to our clan culture and few societies are as affected by it as ours. Instead of providing case studies and comparing apples and oranges, Somalia is a very unqiue circumstance as is apparent from the state of lawlessness, the only and longest failed state in modern times. I do not believe with every fiber of my body that democracy is the answer for Somalia in this moment of time. At the very least we need a transition period that sees clans as powerless, weak, and ineffective and the only way this will be happen is through some Islamic-oriented rule.
Any quick-fix to Somalia's problems doesn't exist and will prove to be counterproductive. I have my own views of religion and politics and so it would be pointless to restate here once again. However, understand that any system that we choose must empower the people and be transparent, just and equal opportunity provider.

The idea that the Somali people are not fit to decide their future has given us despots of all colors.
Here you go speaking like your political theories book have the answer to Somalia's ills. I am a university student just as you and I have great exposure to many of the things you are relying on but the difference between you and I is that I recognize the vast differences between cultures, peoples, and the state of mind between West and say Somalia and I analyze with an eye on both sides not just looking at things from my poli sci classe's perspective.
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Re: Somali flag flying high in downtown Caabudwaaq, Ohio.

Post by Twisted_Logic »

Voltage wrote:
I am very surprosed at you Twisted. You completely misunderstand the nature of clans as it exists in Somali culture and I did not expect you to. Clans are no way shape or form comparable to tribal relations as it exists in Pakistan or Kenya or anywhere else. Somali clans do not have a bottom, they do not have a point with which you can settle to the lowest common denominator that still attempts to provide a unitary organization of any or peoples that are housed under that umbrella. Have you never heard the idiom "my nation and I against the world, my clan and I against my nation, my sub-clan and I against my clan, my family and I against my sub-clan, me against my family". Unlike tribes, Somali clans do not have a lowest common denominator that stills keeps the clan identity rooted, functioning, and relevant!!! Basically federalism in its form in Pakistan or Kenya or any other tribal entity is not compatible with Somali relations of shifting alliances and banding and fracturing sub-sub-sub nucleaus based on the interest as it comes down to even the individual.

Twisted I hardly get surprised but I am very surprised you of all people do not understand this very volatile and highly erratic nature of Somali clan dynamics. :x
That's very true and I agree with you. But the same is true of ethnic groups; maybe, not as explicit as in the case of Somalia (Somalis are notorious for extremism), but the main purpose is the same. Feudalism and regional ( because the concept of clan is almost unheard of in Pakistan outside NWFP) manipulation play the same tactics as the clan in Somalia. Political manipulation take different forms based on the society one is dealing with. Hence, why is important to empower the people and give them a reason so that they can take control of their own destinies, which will reduce conflicts on every-level in the long-run.

Poverty, injustice, illiteracy and competition for power are the main ingredients for armed conflicts. A proper tackling of these social ailments will render needless clan wars null and void

Voltage wrote:
You can blind yourself to the reality sxb. I have never read anywhere that is similar to our stint with democracy. Over a hundred clan based political groups and corruption with the "ina adeer culture" manifested in the highest powers. Again, very few societies in the world are similar to us when it comes to our clan culture and few societies are as affected by it as ours. Instead of providing case studies and comparing apples and oranges, Somalia is a very unqiue circumstance as is apparent from the state of lawlessness, the only and longest failed state in modern times. I do not believe with every fiber of my body that democracy is the answer for Somalia in this moment of time. At the very least we need a transition period that sees clans as powerless, weak, and ineffective and the only way this will be happen is through some Islamic-oriented rule.
Pick up a book on democracy in India and you will know where I am coming from.

Democracy might not be the best form of governance, but to use Churchillian phrase, the best we have tried so far. The politicization of religion is taking this country through a very dangerous path and it is hopeless to expect it to rescue our people. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Nothing more dangerous, more manipulating and more sinister than an Islamist politician armed with random Qu'ranic verses.
Voltage wrote:
Here you go speaking like your political theories book have the answer to Somalia's ills. I am a university student just as you and I have great exposure to many of the things you are relying on but the difference between you and I is that I recognize the vast differences between cultures, peoples, and the state of mind between West and say Somalia and I analyze with an eye on both sides not just looking at things from my poli sci classe's perspective.
Bro, if you are a university student, you should know that no two societies/situations are entirely similar, but to deny patterns of behavior in different societies is foolish.
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Re: Somali flag flying high in downtown Caabudwaaq, Ohio.

Post by Muhammad bin Harti »

Its a tie for the essay writing contest, the co winners are TL and Vo.
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Re: Somali flag flying high in downtown Caabudwaaq, Ohio.

Post by Murax »

Twisted,

Federalism for a country of maximum 10 million? If a nation that small cannot come to a common consensus then they'll never come to a common consensus no matter How many fiefdoms they break into
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