Iran vs. Israel

[ModerateMuslim]

Iranians (formerly the Safavids) who are responsible for weakening* the last Islamic Caliphate.

they certainly contributed - mostly through sufism - but truly the ottoman empire weakened itself becuse it abandoned the book & sunnah and instead turned to shirk, sufism, grave-worshhiping, westernization, european monarchism, feudalism, secularism, etc. i'm glad we got rid of the mushrik sufi ottoman empire. its because of them that ummah is in an inferior position vis-a-vis the mushriks. to right this evil - being inferior to the mushriks - it's paramount that the ummah freed itself from the mushrik ottomans and the stagnation and backwardness they brought to the ummah before anything else.

[hypereffective]

It’s Crunch Time for Israel On Iran

By JOHN BOLTON

Legions of senior American officials have descended on Jerusalem recently, but the most important of them has been Defense Secretary Robert Gates. His central objective was to dissuade Israel from carrying out military strikes against Iran’s nuclear weapons facilities. Under the guise of counseling “patience,” Mr. Gates again conveyed President Barack Obama’s emphatic thumbs down on military force.

The public outcome of Mr. Gates’s visit appeared polite but inconclusive. Yet Iran’s progress with nuclear weapons and air defenses means Israel’s military option is declining over time. It will have to make a decision soon, and it will be no surprise if Israel strikes by year’s end. Israel’s choice could determine whether Iran obtains nuclear weapons in the foreseeable future.

Mr. Obama’s approach to Tehran has been his “open hand,” yet his gesture has not only been ignored by Iran but deemed irrelevant as the country looks inward to resolve the aftermath of its fraudulent election. The hardliner “winner” of that election, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, was recently forced to fire a deputy who once said something vaguely soothing about Israel. Clearly, negotiations with the White House are not exactly topping the Iranian agenda.

Beyond that, Mr. Obama’s negotiation strategy faces insuperable time pressure. French President Nicolas Sarkozy proclaimed that Iran must re-start negotiations with the West by September’s G-20 summit. But this means little when, with each passing day, Iran’s nuclear and ballistic missile laboratories, production facilities and military bases are all churning. Israel is focused on these facts, not the illusion of “tough” diplomacy.

Israel rejects another feature of Mr. Obama’s diplomatic stance. The Israelis do not believe that progress with the Palestinians will facilitate a deal on Iran’s nuclear weapons program. Though Mr. Gates and others have pressed this fanciful analysis, Israel will not be moved.

Worse, Mr. Obama has no new strategic thinking on Iran. He vaguely promises to offer the country the carrot of diplomacy—followed by an empty threat of sanctions down the road if Iran does not comply with the U.S.’s requests. This is precisely the European Union’s approach, which has failed for over six years.

There’s no reason Iran would suddenly now bow to Mr. Obama’s diplomatic efforts, especially after its embarrassing election in June. So with diplomacy out the door, how will Iran be tamed?

Mr. Gates’ mission had extraordinary significance. Israel sees the political and military landscape in a very inauspicious light. It also worries that, once ensnared in negotiations, the Obama administration will find it very hard to extricate itself. The Israelis are probably right. To prove the success of his “open hand,” Mr. Obama will declare victory for “diplomacy” even if it means little to no gains on Iran’s nuclear program.

Under the worst-case scenario, Iran will continue improving its nuclear facilities and Mr. Obama will become the first U.S. president to tie the issue of Israel’s nuclear capabilities into negotiations about Iran’s.

Israel understands that Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s recent commitment to extend the U.S. “defense umbrella” to Israel is not a guarantee of nuclear retaliation, and that it is wholly insufficient to deter Iran from obliterating Israel if it so decides. In fact, Mrs. Clinton’s comment tacitly concedes that Iran will acquire nuclear weapons, exactly the wrong message. Since Israel, like the U.S., is well aware its missile defense system is imperfect, whatever Mr. Gates said about the “defense umbrella” will be politely ignored.

Relations between the U.S. and Israel are more strained now than at any time since the 1956 Suez Canal crisis. Mr. Gates’s message for Israel not to act on Iran, and the U.S. pressure he brought to bear, highlight the weight of Israel’s lonely burden.

Striking Iran’s nuclear program will not be precipitous or poorly thought out. Israel’s attack, if it happens, will have followed enormously difficult deliberation over terrible imponderables, and years of patiently waiting on innumerable failed diplomatic efforts. Absent Israeli action, prepare for a nuclear Iran.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 44808.html

[Shirwac_1]

Why does it have to be this way nuking each other and shid! why not just accept Iran an emergent superpower??

[hypereffective]

Why does it have to be this way nuking each other and shid! why not just accept Iran an emergent superpower??

Because certain powers monopolize who can become a superpower.

[Shirwac_1]

Why does it have to be this way nuking each other and shid! why not just accept Iran an emergent superpower??

Because certain powers monopolize who can become a superpower.

Nope not any more sxb.

[Shirwac_1]

Hence why the US economy going down never to return.

[hypereffective]

Hence why the US economy going down never to return.

Your prognosis is gonna depress many people.

[Paddington Bear]

What if Aliens descend from Mars and release a gas that renders all man-made weapons ineffective?

Oh. Sorry. This was supposed to be a serious thread?

[hypereffective]

Oh. Sorry. This was supposed to be a serious thread?

Not by your standards.

[Paddington Bear]

Afraid not, my friend.

You see, I could ignore the business with the Sunnis benefitting from such a disaster (even though Iran has a large number of Sunnis and even though some Sunni Islamic scholars regard the ithna cashariya as a genuine and acceptable Islamic sect). I could also ignore the part about weakening the Ottoman Empire (even though the Arabs themselves with Sharif Mecca at their head were the ones that helped to finally topple it).

What makes me think this is not a serious topic is in the way it does not deal with facts. The first fact being that it has not been confirmed yet weather Iran has a nuclear WEAPON! The second fact (or is it a factoid?) is that Israel has never threatened to use its nuclear weapons. In fact, for the most part, it tries to divert attention away from the reality it owns such weapons. What Israel did threaten however, was the attack of Iran’s nuclear facilities. In that, it has history (it did it to Iraq in the 80s, recently to Syria and Sudan).

[hypereffective]

The first fact being that it has not been confirmed yet weather Iran has a nuclear WEAPON! The second fact (or is it a factoid?) is that Israel has never threatened to use its nuclear weapons.

You aren't being serious. How/who is gonna confirm Iran has nuclear weapon? The UN? And the Iranians would them find the weapon? What you have failed to notice is, Iranians (or Shia) practice the doctrine of taqiyya (or dissimulation), a doctrine that allows them to lie in order to further their interests, goals, objectives, etc. And you're mistaken about Israel threatening to use its nuclear weapons; it has threatened to retaliate 100/1000th fold if Iran attacks with similar weapons. Do a little googling about Israel's threats to use those weapons.

[Paddington Bear]

My friend, my friend, it seems that you want to argue for the sake of argument. The confirmation of Iran’s nuclear weapons will come from Iran itself! Ahmdinejad is never backwards about coming forward with such news. But, be that as it may, the UN and others found out about Iran’s nuclear program the first time and they are more than likely to find out about it now.

Your point about Israel is simple waffle. In almost all the news reports I read and most of the statements Israel made, they talked about doing all they can to deter Iran from acquiring a nuclear weapon. Every last analyst and Israeli politicians spoke about that meaning a pre-emptive attack (just like the ones I mentioned above) and not a nuclear attack.

[hypereffective]

The confirmation of Iran’s nuclear weapons will come from Iran itself! Ahmdinejad is never backwards about coming forward with such news.

You assume Ahmdinejad doesn't practice taqiyya. Well, that's an assumption.

[Paddington Bear]

Taqiyya has NOTHING to do with it. Ahmdinejad, going by his usual rants, hardly practices it.
When Iran gets its nuclear weapons, it will not shy away from telling the entire world about it. This is not an assumption, it's and educated guess.

[hypereffective]

Taqiyya has NOTHING to do with it. Ahmdinejad, going by his usual rants, hardly practices it.
When Iran gets its nuclear weapons, it will not shy away from telling the entire world about it. This is not an assumption, it's and educated guess.

According to your personal opinions, Taqiyya has NOTHING to do with it. If Iran will not shy away from telling the entire world about it, then it's clear proof that Ahmdinejad was practicing Taqiyya all along.