Somali Youth Diaspora Conf. in DC

[Gedo_Boy]

Twisted,

Islam does make changes to any culture, but only the necessary ones. Remember, the Arabs themselves went through this process and they are the "first victims" of this process. That's the whole reason they were fighting the Prophet (pbuh): because he was changing their culture and the ways of their forefathers.

So, if we went through this process the Arabs went through it first.

As far as Somalis are concerned, perhaps some paganistic practices were removed and Islamic philosophy filled that vacuum. However, that doesn't mean we lost our culture b/c you can see nuanced differences in the way we practice Islam vs. Saudis or Malaysians. That is the benign cultural influnce.

[Twisted_Logic]

Twisted,

Islam does make changes to any culture, but only the necessary ones. Remember, the Arabs themselves went through this process and they are the "first victims" of this process. That's the whole reason they were fighting the Prophet (pbuh): because he was changing their culture and the ways of their forefathers.

So, if we went through this process the Arabs went through it first.

As far as Somalis are concerned, perhaps some paganistic practices were removed and Islamic philosophy filled that vacuum. However, that doesn't mean we lost our culture b/c you can see nuanced differences in the way we practice Islam vs. Saudis or Malaysians. That is the benign cultural influnce.

I never said those changes were undesired. I said we need to know more about pre-Islamic Somalia to better understand our own history and draw lessons from the past.

Any society without a history is doomed to fail. Somalia is a wonderful/sad example.

[Gedo_Boy]

I think it would be major challenge to know about pre-Islamic Somalia. First of all, there was no written heritage so it will be speculative at best. How far back do we go? Ancient times?

Some people say that the ancient Egyptians were the pre-cursors to Somalis. These are major anthropological questions and challenges and we have to make sure we are not passing off speculation as science.

[Twisted_Logic]

I think it would be major challenge to know about pre-Islamic Somalia. First of all, there was no written heritage so it will be speculative at best. How far back do we go? Ancient times?

Some people say that the ancient Egyptians were the pre-cursors to Somalis. These are major anthropological questions and challenges and we have to make sure we are not passing off speculation as science.

We can finds bits and pieces through archeology and then we would be able to connect the dots. It is not impossible. It has been done in other countries.

[Gedo_Boy]

Well, I'm concerned about accuracy and not weaving together a few tidbits into a comprehensive mythology. The same thing has happened to evolution. There was a time when they would find a piece of a molar tooth, claim it came from a caveman, recreate that cave man completely AND EVEN his wife and 2 kids. They later discovered the tooth belonged to a wild pig.

Well, knowing when we as Somalis developed our distinct culture & heritage might be kind of tricky b/c it could have been a gradual work in progress and Islam might have even helped forge the distinct Somali identity. Even the book "The Conquest of Abyssinia" doesn't mention Somali as a name, but rather individual tribes.

Maybe in our pre-Islamic history we weren't even distinctly Somali yet. That is a very real possibility considering Somalis are essentially 100% Muslim. What is the exact correlation and causality between Somalihood and Islam is a big question.

[sadeboi]

I don't share language with a Chechen, don't share a history with him, don't share culture with him ( no the Somali culture aint Islam), don't most certainly don't share geneology with him. As I said earlier, the only thing I share with a Chechen is the way I pray.

This was what you said and below is my question and your reply.

Twisted logic, please mention things culturally associated or historically associated with somalis that is unislamic besides dancing?

Well, the pre-Islamic culture of the Somalis have been erased and discontinued as they are seen to be incompatible with Islam. So much so that a through distillation of the Somali genealogy has been carried out to the point that the Somali genealogy is artificially traced to Arabia. In such environment where anything non-Arabic is destroyed, it is hard to imagine how the true culture of the Somalis could have survived. But even after such systemic destruction of the Somali culture there are traces of our ancient way of life in culture (marriage practices), language, and geography (city names). Archeological examinations of our country will help in a truer understandings of how our forefathers lived. Discoveries such as the cave paintings in Laas gaal will enrich our culture and provide a better understanding of our history.

So you are agreeing that the Somali Culture in essence is Islamic. You babbled about not knowing how before Islam Somalis lived and how we have no knowledge of it. Never addressing my question that the Somali culture that bonds us Somalis today is indeed Islamic in all important cultural aspects. Therefore a non-Muslim Somali has no cultural ties in reality with Muslim-Somalis. Your only argument was the marriage practices, does a shiekh not marry a man and a women? Is in not done in the Islamic way? What done is "ancient cultural marriage practices" of the Somalis?

[Twisted_Logic]

Well, I'm concerned about accuracy and not weaving together a few tidbits into a comprehensive mythology. The same thing has happened to evolution. There was a time when they would find a piece of a molar tooth, claim it came from a caveman, recreate that cave man completely AND EVEN his wife and 2 kids. They later discovered the tooth belonged to a wild pig.

Well, knowing when we as Somalis developed our distinct culture & heritage might be kind of tricky b/c it could have been a gradual work in progress and Islam might have even helped forge the distinct Somali identity. Even the book "The Conquest of Abyssinia" doesn't mention Somali as a name, but rather individual tribes.

Maybe in our pre-Islamic history we weren't even distinctly Somali yet. That is a very real possibility considering Somalis are essentially 100% Muslim. What is the exact correlation and causality between Somalihood and Islam is a big question.

Well, cultures evolve and take radical and contradictory forms as result of new ideas being injected into their system. The Somali culture is no different. An archeological studies will uncover a great deal of facts about the people, history and culture of our lands.

No science is 100% correct and conclusive. But it gives us a better understanding if not a bird's eye-view of the situation.

[Twisted_Logic]

Sadeboi,

You are grasping onto straws as always. Yes, the Somali culture has evolved as a result of Islamization of Somalia, but even then there numerous practices that are distinctly Somali. It would be even stupid to deny this. Your idea that a Somali culture doesn't exist goes against the very basic common-sense.

[sadeboi]

but even then there numerous practices that are distinctly Somali.

Please do inform me what you see to be distinctly Somali practices.

Also I am still waiting on your reply you made the statement below.

But even after such systemic destruction of the Somali culture there are traces of our ancient way of life in culture (marriage practices), language, and geography (city names).

AND I ASKED THIS QUESTION, YOU HAVE YET TO ANSWER IT.

Your only argument was the marriage practices, does a shiekh not marry a man and a women? Is in not done in the Islamic way? What done is "ancient cultural marriage practices" of the Somalis?

Through out this topic you have not answered any question yet you are quick to make statements. Again, if you can do inform us of Somali cultural practices today that are non-Islamic that would make a Non-Muslim Somali have commonality with a Muslim-Somali.

[Twisted_Logic]

Sadeboi,

Let me know if Chechens do this















A non-Muslim Somali will be able to understand and partake in these ceremonies while a Chechen will be reduced clueless and out of place.

[sadeboi]

Aqal Somali and what accompanies it inside is all you can present.

I'll give you that a Chechnyan would not know these things a but a gaal Somali would.

But do remember the Aqal Somali houses families build on and produced by Islamic Marriages. The children in those aqals are raised by Islamic principles. Camel-milk is inserted in the dhiil and not the blood of animals and urine because of our Islamic principles. The lady is cooking the food and not eating raw meat (like our neighbors do) because of Islamic principles. Due to lack of knowledge in the past women were not covered up as prescribed by the religion, even so they private parts are not visible because of Islamic practices.

And this is all from your pictures of aqal-Somali and what it contains.

[Twisted_Logic]

Aqal Somali and what accompanies it inside is all you can present.

I'll give you that a Chechnyan would not know these things a but a gaal Somali would.

But do remember the Aqal Somali houses families build on and produced by Islamic Marriages. The children in those aqals are raised by Islamic principles. Camel-milk is inserted in the dhiil and not the blood of animals and urine because of our Islamic principles. The lady is cooking the food and not eating raw meat (like our neighbors do) because of Islamic principles. Due to lack of knowledge in the past women were not covered up as prescribed by the religion, even so they private parts are not visible because of Islamic practices.

And this is all from your pictures of aqal-Somali and what it contains.

Not many cultures eat raw-meat. This nothing unique to Islam. As for modesty, Somali women throughout the ages had a very liberal outlook, certainly when compared to women from other Muslim countries. Somali women as early as the 60s were flying planes, this says nothing about Islam but the flexibility of the Somali culture.

This picture is a traditional dress of the Somali women. The head is rarely covered.



As for marriage practices, yes it is done through Islamic principles as the same is true throughout the Muslim world. But the ceremonies and celebrations are distinctly Somali. Again, a Chechen wouldn't know a thing about this but a non-Muslim Somali would. Marriages in America and most countries in the West have to be validated and registered by the government, this doesn't mean it is cultural but rather it is legal requirement. Nikaax is a religious requirement.

[Enlightened~Sista]

Sadeboi,

Let me know if Chechens do this















A non-Muslim Somali will be able to understand and partake in these ceremonies while a Chechen will be reduced clueless and out of place.

A Non Muslim Somali?? Whats your fascination with them Twisted?

In case you have been living in a cave all these years..the world is rapidly becoming one global village..people will dress the same, think the same , have the same celebrations eat the same processed junk (American) , watch the same shows (American) listen to the same music ( Western ) cultures and traditions will all but die out and new global ones will replace them

[sadeboi]

Like I have said all Social-Political-Cultural aspects of the Somali lifestyle is indeed built on Islamic principles an Athiest non-Somali could never be anything Somali other then by origin.

Englighten twisted is a big advocate for Somali Non-Somalis and a major supporter of studying atheistic/non-Islamic beliefs, he calls it an enlightenment. And wishes us to drop the arab ways of the Somali and be as wild as the dogs. You take it for what it is.

[Twisted_Logic]

Like I have said all Social-Political-Cultural aspects of the Somali lifestyle is indeed built on Islamic principles an Athiest non-Somali could never be anything Somali other then by origin.

Englighten twisted is a big advocate for Somali Non-Somalis and a major supporter of studying atheistic/non-Islamic beliefs, he calls it an enlightenment. And wishes us to drop the arab ways of the Somali and be as wild as the dogs. You take it for what it is.

Well, the arab financiers of the terror networks are doing a better job than I can ever imagine