the struggle

[SultanOrder]

The struggles that we go through day in and day out. How everything can become so easy thanks to go friends, family, and Illahay. At other times, everything can be so hard with something going wrong, and every movement becomes so hard. Like they say so and so got off on the wrong foot today, or the mind is weak and the flesh strong. Isn't it funny how we are such fickle creatures. How can a person who has food, shelter, and safety everything needed for survival be at the mercy of emotions. For the evolutionists explain where this fits into the sole "purpose" of existence is to pass down our genes, why have not gotten rid of these emotions by now, and are we going to down the line weed them out? And how do you explain this phenomenon of "suicide" in evolutionary terms? A vessel soley evolved to pass down DNA, stops millions of years of evolutionary process, talk about free-will eh, and going against "fate".! In terms of evolution we are no more important or different than bacteria. I wonder if bacteria can choose not to replicate themselves? If you ponder at this, you understand that you can't make sense of it.

[Murax]

Suffi Order...what are u on about?

[SultanOrder]

You know sufi gnostics often say everyone and everything around you are images moving, in modern words they're just characters in a play. If you understand this you can gain great insights, and overcome many struggles. The first part of my rant was about how the power of emotions can have on your perception and more so on you. For example and extreme example is a loved one dies, yet they had no bearing on your survival necessities, basically physically you can live on just fine. Understanding this, it led me to be puzzled at how and evolutionist can explain it in terms of survival, especially since a person can kill himself, how do you explain that? Funny you mention sufis, they recognized this and being ahead of their time found a way to overcome these emotional impacts by exterior causes I.e. other people, by getting you to change your perception in a positive way and strengthening your connection with "image creator" or the "director" of the play I.e. Illahay.

[Cirwaaq]

You know sufi gnostics often say everyone and everything around you are images moving, in modern words they're just characters in a play. If you understand this you can gain great insights, and overcome many struggles. The first part of my rant was about how the power of emotions can have on your perception and more so on you. For example and extreme example is a loved one dies, yet they had no bearing on your survival necessities, basically physically you can live on just fine. Understanding this, it led me to be puzzled at how and evolutionist can explain it in terms of survival, especially since a person can kill himself, how do you explain that? Funny you mention sufis, they recognized this and being ahead of their time found a way to overcome these emotional impacts by exterior causes I.e. other people, by getting you to change your perception in a positive way and strengthening your connection with "image creator" or the "director" of the play I.e. Illahay.

Our loved ones generally do have a great impact on our potential to survive. The emotional response to their departure is far more complex that our direct need of their assistance. We are bound by more than our selfish needs to survive, there are more associated and interwoven memories of experiences we shared with them making them an integral part of our psyche and self perception. A loved one's departure evokes and challenges our self perception and as a result we are mourning more for ourself then we are mourning of the departed as though we have lost a limp. If we weren't selfish we would experience joy and happiness on their behalf for they no long will suffer the day-2-day tribulations of life. The concept of "my loved ones watch me from heaven" is part of the selfish psyche reinforcements we require to retain who we percieve ourselves to be. It is a bit more complex...

Alhamdullilah we are even here... in a maraton of a billion sperm we WON 1st place to even be here.

We are all champions.

[SultanOrder]

Cirwaaq before you go on more tangents last stick to what I was saying first. If you read my first post you would understand that my second post was a continuation of it, and that it did not stand alone. So even though it seems like your coming with a counter argument you are simply reasserting my original point that we are "fickle creatures" at the mercy of our emotions. Anyway stop confusing your self, first you say "we are bound by more than our selfish needs to survive", and conclude with how we are in reality selfish, and instead of being happy for them dying. Whats wrong with you cirwaaq, you think life is so bad that full of day-2-day tribulations that it is better to be dead? God you are a morbid creature, cheer up will you, life is worth living and the struggles can be overcome. Back to my point, this complex world we live in, and our complex selfs that are beyond simply surviving only to procreate, points to Illahay.

[Lamagoodle]

This is the kind of topic that is really worth contributing to. However, addressing this issue could result in me being declared person non-grata on this joint. I will therefore just use Descartes' term cogito, ergo sum which means I think, therefore I am i.e. doubting, understanding, affirming, denying, willing etc; in other words conscious acts which neccessitate my existence.

[BlackVelvet]

Apparently humans aren't the only ones who commit suicide though a mass suicide of bacteria on a petri dish is probably something we will never see

[Cirwaaq]

There isn't necessarily a wrong individual perspective on the topic and we each are only limited by our own experiences. I have not contributed a scientific study but merely an opinion to a complex subject.

Topic title = Re: the struggle in other words the Tribulations.

As muslims we begin with Submission and acknowledgement that all actions occur on Allah's will our freewill is exercised in the process of reactions.

You are analysing the Reaction to determine the validity of the creator which has it's dangers. The same method is used by non believers to support their stance.

Analysing a Baked Cake will never reveal who the Cook was!

[Lamagoodle]

There isn't necessarily a wrong individual perspective on the topic and we each are only limited by our own experiences. I have not contributed a scientific study but merely an opinion to a complex subject.

Topic title = Re: the struggle in other words the Tribulations.

As muslims we begin with Submission and acknowledgement that all actions occur on Allah's will our freewill is exercised in the process of reactions.

You are analysing the Reaction to determine the validity of the creator which has it's dangers. The same method is used by non believers to support their stance.

Analysing a Baked Cake will never reveal who the Cook was!

Are you sure??????? You are shooting yourself in the feet.


By the way, Perfect order/Awakaner/Toosiye, knows one or two things about this issue; So, If I were you and wanted to challenge him, I wouldn't reveal my weaknesses about the subject.

Just a brotherly advice

[Cirwaaq]

There isn't necessarily a wrong individual perspective on the topic and we each are only limited by our own experiences. I have not contributed a scientific study but merely an opinion to a complex subject.

Topic title = Re: the struggle in other words the Tribulations.

As muslims we begin with Submission and acknowledgement that all actions occur on Allah's will our freewill is exercised in the process of reactions.

You are analysing the Reaction to determine the validity of the creator which has it's dangers. The same method is used by non believers to support their stance.

Analysing a Baked Cake will never reveal who the Cook was!

Are you sure??????? You are shooting yourself in the feet.


By the way, Perfect order/Awakaner/Toosiye, knows one or two things about this issue; So, If I were you and wanted to challenge him, I wouldn't reveal my weaknesses about the subject.

Just a brotherly advice

1. it is not a challenge
2. i am not afraid of making errors or failing to communicate my thoughts
3. i already know his assessment of my style of contribution

On the other hand we have not been introduced but Hi and welcome back to snet

[Hyperactive]

interesting and deep thinking!

[bareento]

PO ,i dont know if its relevant to this thread, but make me remember this famous Dirre Dhawa Imam.
The last phrase of his ducaa was like this : "ô God if life is no longer worthy make us leave this world and pass to the following".
he was clearly asking to die!

As for the sucide and evolution there is no contradiction: the number of suicides brought to the overall population is statistically insignificant!

B.

[Lamagoodle]

Cirwaaq, thanks for the welcome.
I was refering to your argument; It was logically flawed. You can be able to tell the baker by analysing the cake. That kind of statements could help perfect order grill you.

The answer to PO's observation lay in Sarte and Kirkegaard's so called existentialism which could be argued to seek answers to actual human lives with an emphasise on the subjective realities of individual existence, individual freedom, and individual choice.

The use of logical argument is a cornerstone of verifying, rejecting or discussing existentionalism.

[Cirwaaq]

He is analysing the meaning and purpose of existence beyond the basic essence of merely staying alive and reproducing thus saying it is insufficient without Ilahey. I am not rejecting that however.

Allah's action precedes existence(reaction) and not only that Allah is distinct from the created(existence). My point is Deficiency in Existence or the inherent flaws in subjective qualities observed in Mankind should not form the basis of proofing the relevance of Ilahey. Allah chooses who to inspire and who not to.

Faith... some have it others don't neither is judge over the other in the grand scheme.

Going back to my cake you are not going to find a baker in the cake you merely have the freedom to eat it or not. There is no compulsion to consume. Assuming that one knows the cake is edible.

Inspiration+Intentional reactions = Responsibility (open to revision)

[Lamagoodle]

He is analysing the meaning and purpose of existence beyond the basic essence of merely staying alive and reproducing thus saying it is insufficient without Ilahey. I am not rejecting that however.

Allah's action precedes existence(reaction) and not only that Allah is distinct from the created(existence). My point is Deficiency in Existence or the inherent flaws in subjective qualities observed in Mankind should not form the basis of proofing the relevance of Ilahey. Allah chooses who to inspire and who not to.

Faith... some have it others don't neither is judge over the other in the grand scheme.

Going back to my cake you are not going to find a baker in the cake you merely have the freedom to eat it or not. There is no compulsion to consume. Assuming that one knows the cake is edible.

Inspiration+Intentional reactions = Responsibility (open to revision)

Cirwaaq, existentialism is concerns the existence of mankind and the purpose of life to the individual. Many people, however, view it as questioning the presence of the omnipotent. I doubt that this is the main thesis of PO. Human beings seek answers to many questions about the journey and the road; Even though, my knowledge of islam is limited, Allah has bestowed us with brains and command us to explore even the unexplained.

Your cake;

Is it really a cake? From a philosophical point of view, each statement/argument begets another set of argument.