That one member that annoys you in here.

[Based]

Aideed and Abdullahi Yusuf are two well known traitorous counterrevolutionaries who betrayed the Somali people, and who would obviously say anything to paint the leaders of the Democratic Republic of Somalia in a bad light to justify their crimes against the peace loving peoples of Somalia. You fail to differentiate between a tactical withdrawal at the insistence of a superpower eager to avoid another devastating cold war conflict, intent on isolating you if you do not comply with their wishes, and a military defeat. The gallant armed forces of the Democratic Republic of Somalia voluntarily withdrew from Ethiopian territory after crushing division after division of the cowardly Ethiopian forces, with Ethiopian casualties at 21,096 to Somalia's 9137 despite Ethiopia's overwhelming numerical superiority and the assistance of the entire Eastern Bloc and the aforementioned cowardly countries.

No respectable commentator would label a voluntary withdrawal forced by external powers a military defeat. Had the limp wristed Carter not pressured the Somali High Command to withdraw, Addis Ababa would have fallen in a matter of weeks.

[luis1]

I want to write a book about Ogaden War,but first a somali must prove me that Somali Army defeated Soviet Union,Cuba and Ethiopia,I know this is impossible,because everybody knows the final outcome of the war.

The situation between somalis and me is very sad I have been six years here and nobody can show me one source which prove Somalia won the war.

I have a question for everybody here.

If Somalia won the Ogaden War as you say,Why can I not find any sources(somali or western) which say Somalia won the war?

All the somali authors agree Somalia lost the war.

Are all these somali authors wrong about Ogaden War outcome?

I do not think so.


Warsame101 opinion about Ogaden War.

http://www.jaallesiyaad.com/english/the ... hievements

Leading a war for liberation of our homelands in 1977 where we defeated Ethiopia and captured the place in mere months until Cubans and Russians intervened.

If I am wrong about Ogaden War outcome,Why dont Warsame101(who wrote a book about Siad Barre) show us sources which prove I am wrong?

[luis1]

Aideed and Abdullahi Yusuf are two well known traitorous counterrevolutionaries who betrayed the Somali people, and who would obviously say anything to paint the leaders of the Democratic Republic of Somalia in a bad light to justify their crimes against the peace loving peoples of Somalia. You fail to differentiate between a tactical withdrawal at the insistence of a superpower eager to avoid another devastating cold war conflict, intent on isolating you if you do not comply with their wishes, and a military defeat. The gallant armed forces of the Democratic Republic of Somalia voluntarily withdrew from Ethiopian territory after crushing division after division of the cowardly Ethiopian forces, with Ethiopian casualties at 21,096 to Somalia's 9137 despite Ethiopia's overwhelming numerical superiority and the assistance of the entire Eastern Bloc and the aforementioned cowardly countries.

No respectable commentator would label a voluntary withdrawal forced by external powers a military defeat. Had the limp wristed Carter not pressured the Somali High Command to withdraw, Addis Ababa would have fallen in a matter of weeks

1.Show me your sources which prove Somalia defeated Cuba and Soviet Union.You talk and talk but you dont show any source.

2.The video says something different about Ogaden War outcome.

A video about Ogaden War:

Enjoy it



A soviet advisor Pter Chaplygin

4:49-4:59

The cuban troops in Ethiopia played a very important role

5:12-5:20

Narrator: "With Cuban troops and Soviet support drove the somalis out the Ogaden"

5:43-5:52

"The cubans and soviets have saved his regime

The video made by CNN says,soviets and Cubans drove the somalis out of Ogaden.

There was not any "voluntary withdrawal",Somalia was defeated by Cuba and Soviet Union.

Let me show you the Somali army casualties:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethio-Somali_War

The war weakened the Somali military. Almost one-third of the regular SNA soldiers, three-eighths of the armored units and half of the Somali Air Force (SAF) were lost

Ogaden War ws a disaster for Somalia,it lost a half of the Air Force,in a war my friend without the Air force you can not win the war.Ethiopia had many more men and resources than Somalis,Ethiopia could lose many more tanks and planes but at the end,Soviet Union and Cubans send more resources,Somalia did not have enough resources to fight against Soviet Union and Cuba alone.

[Based]

As I said, the famous SNA blitzkrieg which conquered vaste swathes of the Ogaden in days necessitated Soviet and Cuban intervention in the Ogaden war, which worried the US who feared being drawn back into another Cold War conflict. The pansy Carter pressured the leaders of the Somali Democratic Republic to withdraw or lose the support of their only ally and face international isolation. I fail to understand how this can be considered a military defeat, despite the numerically superior enemy forces taking more than twice as many casualties as the gallant Somali armed forces.

I suppose you also consider the Iraq war to be a defeat because the U.S. withdrew?

[luis1]

The somali tactical withdrawal or Harer and Jijiga disasters

http://www.acig.info/CMS/index.php?opti ... &Itemid=47

Battle of Harer


The Somalis were fast to realize that the time was now not on their side any more. Counting on bad weather to keep the EtAF on the ground, on 28 November they staged their last offensive against Harer, while simultaneously attempting an advance down the road towards Alem Maya. However, by this time the first Cuban units were deployed in the area as well, together with several BM-21-batteries. They proved decisive: the Somali attack failed at great cost.

The fighting died down, with both sides digging in and scrambling to reinforce available units: even if Somalia was subsequently capable of securing some small amount of US and Egyptian support, the Soviet airbridge was continued and soon enough it was clear who was to win the race.

Despite reports about Somalis activating all their reservists, and - reportedly - also contracting 20 Pakistani pilots and some other foreign and domestic personnel to bring the SAC back into fighting condition, in late 1977 and early 1978 their air force actually cased operations over the Ogaden. This enabled the EtAF to unleash its full fighting capability against Somali troops inside Ethiopia.

On 8 January 1978, after a series of air strikes by F-5As, MiG-21s, and MiG-23BNs against Somali positions and also the air base at Hargeisa, an Ethiopian division - bolstered by Cuban armor and led by Soviet General Petrov - approached Somali positions around Harer. These were first put under constant artillery- and air-bombardments, and then stormed by 120 T-54 and T-62 tanks. The Somali defeat at Harer was complete: according to unconfirmed contemporary reports, one of their brigades was completely destroyed, losing possibly up to 3.000 men killed in that battle alone.

With the loss of Harer, the whole Somali position in Ogaden was actually outflanked: the Somalis were forced to retreat to Jijiga and Dible, the last important crossroads in the area, or else risk being cut off from their major supply bases. The rest of Ogaden had only very poor road communications: the remaining Somali and WSLF units were scattered and heavily depending on supply lines running from Hargheisa. Once these came under a direct threat they began a withdrawal towards the border. This withdrawal swiftly turned into a rout, with Cubans and Ethiopians racing to reach the Somali border before the remnants of three Somali brigades could do so.

Recognizing the threat of such a force for other local countries, Western powers scrambled to move their units into this part of the world, and the situation became so tense that the French deployed their aircraft carrier Clemanceau off the coast of Djibouti, in order to be in position to repel any eventual attack on their colony.


Rout at Jijiga


By early February, the position of Somali and WSLF troops in Ogaden was untennable: Ethiopian air attacks have destroyed almost all of their heavy weapons, and a series of fast offensives of Ethiopian and Cuban ground forces neutralized the WSLF as a fighting force. Worst yet, the WSLF and the regular Somali troops were threatened to be cut off of their bases in western Somalia. At the time there were no less but 11.000 Cuban troops in Ethiopia: 500 of them alone were training the Ethiopian People’s Militia, while some 8.000 were deployed in two mechanized brigades Castro insisted to be used only for liberation of Ogaden.

Consequently, on 9 February 1978, Somalia proclaimed a general mobilisation followed by a State of Emergency. Additional units were deployed along the frontier after the town of Hargeisa was bombed by Ethiopian F-5s, while large numbers of Somali-speaking refugees from the Ogaden crossed the border and with them came fleeing troops and WSLF-fighters.

All efforts of Barre's regime were in vain, however: the ultimate catastrophe occurred on 5 March 1978, when Gen. Petrov initiated a large combined-arms offensive against remnants of two Somali Army brigades and some minor WSLF-units concentrated at Jijiga. Within only few hours of that morning, the Cuban-flown Ethiopian MiG-21s, MiG-23s, and Mi-24s flew no less but 140 combat sorties, hitting the Somalis harder than ever before. Deploying the Ethiopian Infantry with Cuban armour and artillery support in a frontal attack against Somalis at Jijiga, Petrov simultaneously dispatched all available Mi-6s and Mi-8s to fly troops and 70 ASU-87s and BRDMs deep behind the enemy frontlines. These were followed by the second Cuban mechanized brigade, which drove deep around the Somali flank.

The Somalis fought bravely, but they had little armour on their own, no air cover and dwindling stocks of ammunition. "They were sitting ducks. They didn't have a chance", explained one military expert close to the Ethiopian high command in Mogadishu to foreing media.

After learning about the rout at Jijiga, Barre immediately announced that all Somali troops would be withdrawn from Ethiopia. It was too late: suffering catastrophic losses, the remaining Somali units dropped their weapons, fleeing north-east in complete disarray, pursued by Cuban tanks which drove through Jijiga and continued eastwards at a high pace. Behind them two Ethiopian divisions immediately started mopping-up operations, re-occupying Ogaden within the following week, and concluding their operations in the Jijiga area by 14 March.

1.Show me sources,I do not want words I want to see articles,sources.


Based,you talk and talk and talk,but I do not see any source which prove Somalia won Ogaden War.

The strategical withdrawal is false,Somali Army was defeated in Harer and Jijiga and after these battles Somali Army was not match to Ethiopians.


6 years here and nobody can show me a single source.

[Brobaganda]

It's important that you use words like "defeated" and "lost the war" appropriately. Somalia wasn't defeated. Being "defeated" would mean to be beaten in battle. The SNA was not beaten in the war. The administration and the SNA were certainly demoralized but they were not beaten in battle. Their morale was destroyed but they were not beaten in battle. They were forced to withdraw from the Ogaden due to Soviet Union and Cuban intervention. They withdrew because their resources were already stretched way too thin and because things got tough. They withdrew from the Ogaden before they could have faced a possible defeat. Somalia certainly did not lose this war.

Consider this to better understand: It's like a boy (Somalia) beating up another boy (Ethiopia) to a bloody pulp but then other boys (South Yemen, Cuba, USSR) coming in to protect the boy getting beat up (Ethiopia). Realizing the the boy (Somalia) was outnumbered, he let go of the boy (Ethiopia) and walked away. The boy (Ethiopia) is at the corner all bloodied and the other boy (Somalia) walks away happy. He didnt necessarily get to finish the job (taking over Ogaden) but nonetheless, he is pleased with what he was able to do.

[luis1]

As I said, the famous SNA blitzkrieg which conquered vaste swathes of the Ogaden in days necessitated Soviet and Cuban intervention in the Ogaden war, which worried the US who feared being drawn back into another Cold War conflict. The pansy Carter pressured the leaders of the Somali Democratic Republic to withdraw or lose the support of their only ally and face international isolation. I fail to understand how this can be considered a military defeat, despite the numerically superior enemy forces taking more than twice as many casualties as the gallant Somali armed forces.

I suppose you also consider the Iraq war to be a defeat because the U.S. withdrew

The article is very interesting but you forgot this part of the article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethio-Somali_War

From October 1977 until January 1978, the SNA-WSLF forces attempted to capture Harar, where 40,000 Ethiopians had regrouped and re-armed with Soviet-supplied artillery and armor; backed by 1500 Soviet "advisors" and 11,000 Cuban soldiers, they engaged the attackers in vicious fighting. Though the Somali forces reached the city outskirts by November, they were too exhausted to take the city and eventually had to withdraw to await the Ethiopian counterattack.

The expected Ethiopian-Cuban attack occurred in early February; however, it was accompanied by a second attack that the Somalis did not expect. A column of Ethiopian and Cuban troops crossed northeast into the highlands between Jijiga and the border with Somalia, bypassing the SNA-WSLF force defending the Marda Pass. The attackers were thus able to assault from two directions in a "pincer" action, allowing the re-capture of Jijiga in only two days while killing 3,000 defenders. The Somali defense collapsed and every major Ethiopian town was recaptured in the following weeks. Recognizing that his position was untenable, Siad Barre ordered the SNA to retreat back into Somalia on 9 March 1978, although Rene LaFort claims that the Somalis, having foreseen the inevitable, had already withdrawn its heavy weapons.The last significant Somali unit left Ethiopia on 15 March 1978, marking the end of the war.

Following the withdrawal of the SNA, the WSLF continued their insurgency. By May 1980, the rebels, with the assistance of a small number of SNA soldiers who continued to help the guerilla war, controlled a substantial region of the Ogaden. However by 1981 the insurgents were reduced to sporadic hit-and-run attacks and were finally defeated.

The war weakened the Somali military. Almost one-third of the regular SNA soldiers, three-eighths of the armored units and half of the Somali Air Force (SAF) were lost

Somalis were defeated in Harar and they were defeated in Jijiga.After these defeats,Siad Barre made a decision.

Recognizing that his position was untenable, Siad Barre ordered the SNA to retreat back into Somalia on 9 March 1978

The Somali Army and WSLF continued the war in Ogaden until 1981,because WSLF was defeated in 1981.


The article is very clear after the defeats of Harer and Jijiga,Siad Barre can not resist the pressure of Cubans and Soviets and he left Ogaden.

The article is very interesting,it agree with my standpoint.

[luis1]

It's important that you use words like "defeated" and "lost the war" appropriately. Somalia wasn't defeated. Being "defeated" would mean to be beaten in battle. The SNA was not beaten in the war. The administration and the SNA were certainly demoralized but they were not beaten in battle. Their morale was destroyed but they were not beaten in battle. They were forced to withdraw from the Ogaden due to Soviet Union and Cuban intervention. They withdrew because their resources were already stretched way too thin and because things got tough. They withdrew from the Ogaden before they could have faced a possible defeat. Somalia certainly did not lose this war.

Consider this to better understand: It's like a boy (Somalia) beating up another boy (Ethiopia) to a bloody pulp but then other boys (South Yemen, Cuba, USSR) coming in to protect the boy getting beat up (Ethiopia). Realizing the the boy (Somalia) was outnumbered, he let go of the boy (Ethiopia) and walked away.

Somalia was beaten in Harer and Jijiga in 1978,after these battles Siad Barre knew that he could not continue the war against Ethiopia(with Cuban and Soviet support),if Siad Barre would want to continue the war against Cubans and Soviets,the somali army would have been totally destroyed.Siad Barre withdrew of Ogaden was because he knew Somali Army was not match to Soviet Union and Cubans.Somalia did lose the war,because Siad Barre could not capture and retain Ogaden and his army was almost destroyed.Somali Air Force lost a half of its planes,without planes you can not win a war.

After Ogaden War,Ethiopian Army was the strongest military power in Horn of Africa and Somali Army was no match for Ethiopia.

Siad Barre says something very interesting in this video:



0:17-0:23

Somalia can not fight with the Soviet Union,or neither the Warsaw Pact.Somalia can not afford that

[luis1]

Consider this to better understand: It's like a boy (Somalia) beating up another boy (Ethiopia) to a bloody pulp but then other boys (South Yemen, Cuba, USSR) coming in to protect the boy getting beat up (Ethiopia). Realizing the the boy (Somalia) was outnumbered, he let go of the boy (Ethiopia) and walked away. The boy (Ethiopia) is at the corner all bloodied and the other boy (Somalia) walks away happy. He didnt necessarily get to finish the job (taking over Ogaden) but nonetheless, he is pleased with what he was able to do

This is the problem of Somalia,bad luck for Somalia.

The reality following your example is Somalia was winning the war against Ethiopia but ethiopians received Cuban and Soviet help,Somalia could not defeat these 3 enemies,so Siad Barre left Ogaden.

This is a defeat,because you only defeat Ethiopia but you could not defeat Cuba and Soviet Union,you left the battlefield because you can not defeat these 3 friends.

I give you an example:

I want part of the house of a man(Ogaden).I am beating the owner(Ethiopia),I crush his face and stomach,I broke his arms,I expelled him from his house but he called his friends(Cuba and Soviet Union) and they expelled me from the house,Somalia left the house because,she knows that his army can not fight and win a war against Soviet Union and Cuba,this a defeat,Somalia tried to capture part of Ethiopia and failed because Ethiopia called strong allies.

[Brobaganda]

Luis,

History is written by the victors. If you say you won the war, then write your book the way you want to write it. You don't need any opinion or views from the Somalis you say you "defeated"

[Brobaganda]

Walking away is not a defeat. Defeat means you were defeated militarily. It was not a military defeat. They quit so they wont face a military defeat

[waryaa]

luis, in another thread, I told you the best way to get info is to interview the generals, colonels, foot soldiers, etc. I asked one of the senior army commanders in that battle a few questions last nite. He said the war was like Canada going to war with the USA. Somalia was extremely powerful and it took the Soviets, Germans, Cubans and all the eastern block to subdue it and reverse its success. There's a also a one hour TV interview in which Abdulahi Yusuf talked about the war - he commanded the southern front. He said they could capture Adis Ababa before international coalition came to rescue Ethiopia.

[luis1]

Walking away is not a defeat. Defeat means you were defeated militarily. It was not a military defeat. They quit so they wont face a military defeat

They were defeated militarily,Somalis were defeated in Harer and Jijiga and after these battles Somalia could not capture Ogaden because its army was no match for Cuba and Soviet Union.

This article is very clear:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethio-Somali_War

The expected Ethiopian-Cuban attack occurred in early February; however, it was accompanied by a second attack that the Somalis did not expect. A column of Ethiopian and Cuban troops crossed northeast into the highlands between Jijiga and the border with Somalia, bypassing the SNA-WSLF force defending the Marda Pass. The attackers were thus able to assault from two directions in a "pincer" action, allowing the re-capture of Jijiga in only two days while killing 3,000 defenders. The Somali defense collapsed and every major Ethiopian town was recaptured in the following weeks. Recognizing that his position was untenable, Siad Barre ordered the SNA to retreat back into Somalia on 9 March 1978, although Rene LaFort claims that the Somalis, having foreseen the inevitable, had already withdrawn its heavy weapons.The last significant Somali unit left Ethiopia on 15 March 1978, marking the end of the war.

The article says Siad Barre abandoned Ogaden because his position was untenable,his army could not defeat Cubans and Soviets,period.

Show me articles which prove Somalia won the war.

Luis,

History is written by the victors. If you say you won the war, then write your book the way you want to write it. You don't need any opinion or views from the Somalis you say you "defeated"

I only want a somali source which proves that Somalia won the war,if Somalia won the war why I can not find any source on NET which say Somalia won the war.

I say Somalia was defeated by Cubans and Soviets and nobody can show me one source which says I am wrong.Why?

If I am wrong about Ogaden War outcome,show me the sources about my "mistake".Is this so difficult to do?

All the somali authors says Somalia lost the war.

Are all the somali authors wrong about Ogaden War outcome?

I do not think so.

[luis1]

luis, in another thread, I told you the best way to get info is to interview the generals, colonels, foot soldiers, etc. I asked one of the senior army commanders in that battle a few questions last nite. He said the war was like Canada going to war with the USA. Somalia was extremely powerful and it took the Soviets, Germans, Cubans and all the eastern block to subdue it and reverse its success. There's a also a one hour TV interview in which Abdulahi Yusuf talked about the war - he commanded the southern front. He said they could capture Adis Ababa before international coalition came to rescue Ethiopia

What does Ahmed Yusuf say about Ogaden War outcome?

http://allpuntland.com/xayaysiis/bookcy ... pe2011.pdf

Hi,How are you?

You talked to a senior army commander about Ogaden War.

What is the name of the commander?

What did he tell you about Ogaden War?

Who won Ogaden War?

My standpoint is Somalia was defeated by Cuba and Soviet Union.

[Leftist]

Guys,

No shame in taking a L. If war is " ...merely the continuation of diplomacy by other means....", then we lost and lost big. Yes, we were defeated by a superior force, if that's what Luis wants to hear.

Losing dagaalkii Seben-Seben was probably the worst disaster to befall Somalia in the modern-era and did more to create the conditions that led to the civil-war than any other factor. Imagine if we won, or at least fought to a respectable draw and the outcome was 'neutral'. Would any of the acronym-jabhads that popped up like flies have any leg to stand on? A victorious nation stays together, a defeated one is circled by vultures.

Thanks to bitter defeat, and no allies to speak of, we started eating ourselves from the inside out. Morale? Destroyed. Midnimo? Gone. Qabyaalad? Back with a vengeance, baby. Some would argue that qabyaalad never left in the first place , but still, the SNA was the pride of the nation and the glue that held Somalia together. The road to civil war was paved with it's defeat at the hands of the international communist alliance. Guns that once fired against the Habesha were now turned on Somali cities. The rest is history that we're still living today.

We lost, lost big, and are still suffering from the after-effects of that loss.

AUN to the shuhadaa of '77.