Egypt Court Sentences 528 Morsi Supporters To Death

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Re: Egypt Court Sentences 528 Morsi Supporters To Death

Post by Gabre »

gurey25 wrote:
Gabre wrote:See, that sounds a lot like the Ikhwaan movement's line. What are these Western influences that corrupted Ikhwaan from being purely Traditional Islam then? Allowing banking and modern finance to exist?
The ikhwan accepts and swallows whole the alien western concept of the State, they accept banking and modern finance which makes them incompatible with Islam.
It sounds nothing like what i wrote.
Well if I'm not mistaken, the whole idea of grassroots volunteerism and working to service the poor by distributing zakat, education etc is a core part of Ikhwaan and why it's so prevalent globally.

I also don't really see how it's advantageous to revert to a society without modern finance and living like it's the 1700s. The Muslim world is incredibly backwards already, how would more atavism help?
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Re: Egypt Court Sentences 528 Morsi Supporters To Death

Post by gurey25 »

You have 3 choices when it comes to developing your economy and using finance.

1. "modern finance" i.e fractional reserve banking which also means subservience to international banks and giving them total control over your economy.

2. pretend to have " modern banking" but in reality have public banking controlled by the state working for goals set by the state e.g Japan, China, Taiwan, Malaysia today and historically during the phase of development and industrilization Finland, Sweden, Austria and many more.

3. Alternatives to banking as finance is not even required, banks are dangerous creatures even chained and well trained ones like the ones Japan and Chinese have, you need an islamic alternative.
Idealy you would start with an independent public "bank" while develping alternate structures in parallel.

ofcourse any muslim nation that attempts option 2 will be promptly invaded.

today you have only one choice, total surrender. option 1.
Gabre wrote:Well if I'm not mistaken, the whole idea of grassroots volunteerism and working to service the poor by distributing zakat, education etc is a core part of Ikhwaan and why it's so prevalent globally.
This is one aspect that is islamic, but their view of governance once in power is no different to any non muslim country.
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Re: Egypt Court Sentences 528 Morsi Supporters To Death

Post by Arabman »

Another 682 are being tried, and will probably be sentenced to death, making it over 1000 sentenced to death in a span of 1-2 weeks. One of them is Muslim Brotherhood leader Mohammed Badie:
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http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/ ... F720140325
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Re: Egypt Court Sentences 528 Morsi Supporters To Death

Post by LiquidHYDROGEN »

gurey25 wrote:You have 3 choices when it comes to developing your economy and using finance.

1. "modern finance" i.e fractional reserve banking which also means subservience to international banks and giving them total control over your economy.

2. pretend to have " modern banking" but in reality have public banking controlled by the state working for goals set by the state e.g Japan, China, Taiwan, Malaysia today and historically during the phase of development and industrilization Finland, Sweden, Austria and many more.

3. Alternatives to banking as finance is not even required, banks are dangerous creatures even chained and well trained ones like the ones Japan and Chinese have, you need an islamic alternative.
Idealy you would start with an independent public "bank" while develping alternate structures in parallel.

ofcourse any muslim nation that attempts option 2 will be promptly invaded.

today you have only one choice, total surrender. option 1.
Gabre wrote:Well if I'm not mistaken, the whole idea of grassroots volunteerism and working to service the poor by distributing zakat, education etc is a core part of Ikhwaan and why it's so prevalent globally.
This is one aspect that is islamic, but their view of governance once in power is no different to any non muslim country.
What is difference between options 2 and 3? What are the alternatives you mdntiined in option 3?

Also are you saying if, for instance, Somalia decided to create public banks and refused to trade in the dollar but in say gold, it would face sanctions and possibly war?
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Re: Egypt Court Sentences 528 Morsi Supporters To Death

Post by jalaaludin5 »

From this...
Image
Image





To this...
Image
Image

Morsi should be sentenced to death!

And let his humiliation be a lesson to all the future wanna be leaders who think they can cheat/trick Allah by incorporating Islamic Shari'a with man made western laws.

Takbir!
Allahu Akbar!
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Re: Egypt Court Sentences 528 Morsi Supporters To Death

Post by Arabman »

jalaaludin5 wrote:Morsi should be sentenced to death!

And let his humiliation be a lesson to all the future wanna be leaders who think they can cheat/trick Allah by incorporating Islamic Shari'a with man made western laws.

Takbir!
Allahu Akbar!
Did your favorite sheekh Imran Hosein predict Morsi and the MB's fall from grace, arrest and sentencing to death?
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Re: Egypt Court Sentences 528 Morsi Supporters To Death

Post by James Dahl »

I would actually argue that "traditional" Islamic states (and yes they were states) started being 'unislamic' in character quite rapidly, the same with early Christian churches that rapidly abandoned poverty and pacifism in the face of the realities of governance.

The problem with Islamic states is the financing only really allows revenues to be significantly collected from non-Muslims, but all those non-Muslims need to do in order to avoid paying those taxes is to become Muslims, which is openly encouraged by Islamic law. For a time the Caliphate managed to avoid this problem by always acquiring new non-Muslim populations to tax via military conquest, but eventually it grew so large and unstable that by 750 the Islamic Empire was ungovernable. The Banu Abbas revolution against the Banu Ummaya shattered the unity of the Islamic Empire, which never recovered that unity to this day. From 750 onwards there was never again a single Islamic empire.

The Banu Abbas were largely tyrants who rather than finding new conquests to fund the coffers of the state, instead squeezed the Muslim population for extra taxes, introducing the old Persian land tax, the Kharaj. The Banu Abbas also largely abandoned traditional Islamic law and philosophy in favor of the Mu'tazili fiqh. Their rule actually caused the division between the Islamic state and the Islamic "church", as Islamic law was no longer issued justly by the state, the four Madhhab schools split off and formed an underground movement against the Mu'tazili. Remember that ibn Hanbal spent much of his life in prison due to his opposition to the state-favored Mu'tazili fiqh.

Mu'tazili is what we would now call "modernist" Islam, focusing on human free will, logic and facts over faith and submission to Allah. It is no surprise that Islamic science achieved its golden age in the Mu'tazili era, with huge strides made in mathematics, chemistry and physics made in this era. Mu'tazili ideology caused huge instability though and eventually the ideology would be discarded and Hanbali fiqh would become the state supported fiqh. The damage was done though, again the unity between the ruler and the law was shattered.

The Banu Abbas had come to power not by their own strength, but by the strength of Turkish tribes from the north, who almost immediately began exercising independence from the Banu Abbas and further fragmented the state by establishing the central Asian land tenure system, Iqta. Iqta is essentially a Turkic feudal system. As Turkish warlords took over states across the Islamc world as the Caliphate disintegrated, Iqta also spread, eventually all the way to Egypt under the Mamelukes.

By about 900, the traditional Islamic Empire was dead in all but name, though would hobble on in a de-jure capacity until the Mongols finally finished them off in the 13th century.

The Turkish empires that followed were Islamic to a degree, but they were first and foremost Turkish empires. They were built on Iqta and the Turkish tribal system. The Ottoman armies were essentially a feudal army, Timariot lords and their feudal levies, then later the Jannisaries, an army completely controlled by the state made up of Christian boys 'taxed' from the Balkans, brought up Muslim and trained from infancy as elite shock troops. When the Ottomans finally "westernized" in the 19th century it wasn't a sudden switch from traditional islam to something else. Traditional islam had been left behind long before then.
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Re: Egypt Court Sentences 528 Morsi Supporters To Death

Post by gurey25 »

LiquidHYDROGEN wrote:What is difference between options 2 and 3? What are the alternatives you mdntiined in option 3?
You would need public banking to transition away from banking altogether, the alternatives to be developed in parallel could be in many forms one of them guild like/ cooperatives associations that provide their own finance.
A good example are the cooperatives in the emilia romagna region of Italy.
They are largely self funding and own their own banks.
LiquidHYDROGEN wrote:Also are you saying if, for instance, Somalia decided to create public banks and refused to trade in the dollar but in say gold, it would face sanctions and possibly war?
bad example somalia is not a sovereign country it is a protectorate.
Most of the world is not sovereign enough to make their own economic decisions, they are made for them.
For the few truly sovereign and independent countries they are viewed with hostility till they " reform".

and gold is not the answer, goldbugs are deluded in thinking gold promises freedom, it doesn't because the world supply of gold has been controlled by the same people for the past 200 years.
You would need to use the same "magic tricks" the bankers use against them, ie credit creation
but with modifications such as demmurrage and also possible currency swaps with trading partners and many other tricks.
Something similiar is being cooked right now by the BRICS, primarliy china and russia and should be ripe within 15 years.
The sanctions against iran have accelerated this.
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Re: Egypt Court Sentences 528 Morsi Supporters To Death

Post by gurey25 »

James Dahl wrote:The problem with Islamic states is the financing only really allows revenues to be significantly collected from non-Muslims, but all those non-Muslims need to do in order to avoid paying those taxes is to become Muslims, which is openly encouraged by Islamic law. For a time the Caliphate managed to avoid this problem by always acquiring new non-Muslim populations to tax via military conquest, but eventually it grew so large and unstable that by 750 the Islamic Empire was ungovernable. The Banu Abbas revolution against the Banu Ummaya shattered the unity of the Islamic Empire, which never recovered that unity to this day. From 750 onwards there was never again a single Islamic empire.
This is a common mistake made by westerners that the major source of revenue was jizya, infact it was kharaj.
Kharaj was the tax on agricultural produce. and was independent from jizya or zakat.
The financial problems of the ummayad was due to excessive millitary spending and mass conversion to islam leading to many newly muslim farmers not paying kharaj.
This was resolved when in the end everyone who either owned or leased agricultural land had to pay kharaj regardless of religion.

and Jizya was not any greater than the 2.5% minnimum a muslim had to pay in zakat.
The ratio fluctuated due to economic conditions and there were times when the jizya rate was lower or equal to the zakat rate.

The main aim of jizya was to put contraints on the economic power of non muslims and keep them subservient to the Muslim dawla.
Since non muslims were not subject to conscription they could stay and keep making money and get an unfair advantage. Economic power leads to political power threatening the security of the muslim dawla.
Since the non muslim population of most of the middleeast was still the overwhelming majority well into the start of the crusades i.e 1000 AD and 300 years after the futux you can see how dangerous it was.

The best example of what happens when jizya was lifted was the Ottomans during Tanzimat.
Within a generation from a position of near equality with muslim traders and businesses the christians achieved near total control over the economy of the state.

The iqta is not entirely fuedal and not entirely unislamic there was disagreement over its use amongst the madhabs. Nevertheless it was never as extensive as European Fuedalism and did not even cover the majority of the farmland with most of the farmland still held by yeoman farmers.
Iqta did not extend to the urban environment which was the domain of the Imarat or Waqf.
James Dahl wrote:Mu'tazili is what we would now call "modernist" Islam, focusing on human free will, logic and facts over faith and submission to Allah. It is no surprise that Islamic science achieved its golden age in the Mu'tazili era, with huge strides made in mathematics, chemistry and physics made in this era. Mu'tazili ideology caused huge instability though and eventually the ideology would be discarded and Hanbali fiqh would become the state supported fiqh. The damage was done though, again the unity between the ruler and the law was shattered.
Muctazili caqeeda was not the driving force between the sciences because not all scholars even in the bay al xikma were muctazili in the begining. Allot of them were even christian, zoroazstrian and at least one buddhist i can think of.

Muctazili being too speculative lead to opposition and the fact that it was state sanctioned and forced on the people increased oppposition. there was even a spanish style inquisition the mixna that imprisoned and tortured dozens of opponents.

The heights of Science and Technology peaked in the 1000's long afterr the relegation from power and influence for the muctazila sect and the vast majority of scientists where ashacari and maturidi just like the majority of the people.
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Re: Egypt Court Sentences 528 Morsi Supporters To Death

Post by James Dahl »

Gurley you're wrong that only option 1 is allowed, many societies have tried to live without usury. There are essentially 3 functional financing systems.

Believe it or not but Capitalism originated as a financing system that did not require usury. Instead of a loan, investors would pool their money into a concern and split the profits based on how many shares they bought. This originated in long distance trade by Italian city states.

The second form is the second oldest, usury. Lending money with the expectation of payment with interest. It is the least fair but the most effective form of financing, which is why it has never gone away despite societies and entire religions trying to ban the practice.

The third is the oldest, patronage. Patronage is essentially the funding of work or venture just because, and is the least effective form of financing, though state patronage of industry under Communist governments paid some dividends. Non profit organizations, military contractors, artists and whatnot rely overwhelmingly on patronage.
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Re: Egypt Court Sentences 528 Morsi Supporters To Death

Post by Jam Street »

This is genocide!
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Re: Egypt Court Sentences 528 Morsi Supporters To Death

Post by gurey25 »

James Dahl wrote:Gurley you're wrong that only option 1 is allowed, many societies have tried to live without usury. There are essentially 3 functional financing systems.
If you are small enough or have little usefull natural resources you are not worth bothering with and you can do whatever you want.
The most that you will get is constant lectures on the need to "reform".
James Dahl wrote:Believe it or not but Capitalism originated as a financing system that did not require usury. Instead of a loan, investors would pool their money into a concern and split the profits based on how many shares they bought. This originated in long distance trade by Italian city states.
We dont have a problem with capital we are not communists we have an issue with the financier class,
it goes against the fundamental values of islam, private banking is necessary and dangerous and should be exterminated.
James Dahl wrote:The third is the oldest, patronage. Patronage is essentially the funding of work or venture just because, and is the least effective form of financing, though state patronage of industry under Communist governments paid some dividends. Non profit organizations, military contractors, artists and whatnot rely overwhelmingly on patronage.
The islamic approach to this was through the use of the imarat or waqf, this is as old as medina during the prophets scw time and reached its peak during the Ottoman period.
Over 80% of all land in Istanbul in 1845 was owned by waqfs, the same in all other major cities even in the arab regions like damascus and allepo.
The waqf financed urban development and other infrastructure through the assignment of productive land and profitable business revenue to a set specific purpose. These range from maintenance of roads and bridges and water provision to soup kitchens and hostpitals and schools and univerities.
The modern western university developed from an education waqf that the crusaders witnessed in operation and brought it back to europe nearly the same, the different parts of a waqfiyie the kulliye became the college.

There is nothing that suggests that they are ineffective and it sure beats the current welfare system with its unsustainable taxation.
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Re: Egypt Court Sentences 528 Morsi Supporters To Death

Post by James Dahl »

The purpose of financing is to allow business ventures to occur, as only a small number of people have enough money to do so out of their own savings.

The reason why patronage is not as effective as other methods in achieving this end is because patronage is not motivated by profit, so a loan or capital investment is not based on whether a venture would succeed or fail but rather on a number of cultural, political or personal priorities or opinions. There might be huge demand for something in a society but the elite who control patronage financing might not consider it worth funding. This was a major problem with Communist centrally planned economies, where they would produce millions of tractors but not have enough bread, or only one kind of every product was available, even if it was complete crap.

Even though it was illegal, the Soviet Union had tons of millionaires who made a fortune in the black market, mostly from loans and smuggling to fulfill this demand vacuum. This is where the oligarchs came from, when the state was selling off the Soviet industries, there were Russian multi-millionaire gangsters there to buy it all.
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Re: Egypt Court Sentences 528 Morsi Supporters To Death

Post by gurey25 »

I was referring to the use of Islamic instruments of " patronage" as you call it in welfare and public spending not business financing.
I already referred in my earlier posts to the guild and a central public "bank" like structure to fill the role of private banks.
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Re: Egypt Court Sentences 528 Morsi Supporters To Death

Post by LiquidHYDROGEN »

gurey25 wrote:I was referring to the use of Islamic instruments of " patronage" as you call it in welfare and public spending not business financing.
I already referred in my earlier posts to the guild and a central public "bank" like structure to fill the role of private banks.
So what you're saying gurey is that businesses and private ventures should be found by pooling resources and guild money as well as public spending by government run "banks". And that infrastructure and city-building projects should be funded through patronage/endowments by private businesses and individuals?
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