The Anonymous Ajuuraan Dynasty

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Grant
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Re: The Anonymous Ajuuraan Dynasty

Post by Grant »

Sahal,

On your map, the Okiek and Hadza are Khoisan. The Sandawe are in the same area. The Aweer are further north.

This clan map is pre-1977. You will notice the non-Somali areas in pink. These are the Bajuni and the Kasur tribes mentioned in the Book of the Zanj.
What you are trying to say is that the Bantu expansion never reached Somalia, which is likely true. The Gosha are 19th century imports. But what you are missing are the pre-Cushitic peoples, who are not Bantu, i.e. the Khoisan. The Eyle have an in-situ archaeological record that goes back to the Neolithic. The new word that is being used is "pre-Cushitic". Check the links I gave Gegi.

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Re: The Anonymous Ajuuraan Dynasty

Post by Xildiiid »

^
No such thing as "Pre-Cushites" in the Horn of Africa. As I already stated, Proto Cushitic was spoken in the Horn of Africa as early as 6000 B.C.

Your (ridiculous) sources claim that "non Hamitic" groups were expelled as late as 1000 years ago which doesn't coincide with modern archeology and linguistsics. What you're trying to present is nothing but outdated and ambiguous hypothesis from colonial era 'scholars' who were trying to push their Eurocentric nonsense.

The groups you claim are San are not San at all. Again, You're trying to present your own opinions and wishes as facts but to make it clear your opinions and wishes are not facts white man
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Re: The Anonymous Ajuuraan Dynasty

Post by Grant »

Xildiiid wrote:^
No such thing as "Pre-Cushites" in the Horn of Africa. As I already stated, Proto Cushitic was spoken in the Horn of Africa as early as 6000 B.C.

Your (ridiculous) sources claim that "non Hamitic" groups were expelled as late as 1000 years ago which doesn't coincide with modern archeology and linguistsics. What you're trying to present is nothing but outdated and ambiguous hypothesis from colonial era 'scholars' who were trying to push their Eurocentric nonsense.

The groups you claim are San are not San at all. Again, You're trying to present your own opinions and wishes as facts but to make it clear your opinions and wishes are not facts white man
Hildiid,

I think it might be helpful for you to get a basic understanding of what the proto-Cushitic was.

There are approximately 47 Cushitic languages. They divide north, east, south and west.

http://strategyleader.org/articles/cushite.html

http://rogerblench.info/Language/Afroas ... 202008.pdf

There are links between Omotic, Chadic and Cushitic that began in the Sahara.

http://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchicag ... shitic.pdf

"With the exception of a couple of problematic outliers in Tanzania, all of the forty-odd Cushitic languages are spoken in Ethiopia, with spillover into Somalia and the border areas of Kenya and Sudan. Oromo is the most prominent representative of the Cushitic family."

Af Samaale and Oromo are the chief blocks of the Southeastern Cushitic. This group developed on the Omo and Tana rivers, in an area extending from Lake Turkana in present-day northern Kenya to the Indian Ocean coast. The two languages only began to differentiate after the first century AD, when the proto-Sam began to move north. Note that not all Cushitic languages are Samaale, and that not all Cushitic speakers have a Cushitic genetic base. The Dahalo are a Khoisan people who speak a Cushitic language, with clicks.

The proto-Cushitic isn't what you thought it was. See what you get if you Google it.
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Re: The Anonymous Ajuuraan Dynasty

Post by Xildiiid »

Proto Cushitic is the ancestral language of all Cushitic subfamilies and that language was spoken in the Horn of Africa as early as 6000 B.C.

Not a single source that you posted is legit and I already debunked the Omo Tana myth in your other thread when I proved to you that modern linguists do not even entertain that idea. The Omo Tana languages are seperate languages that fall under lowland east Cushitic. The Somali language did not originate in the Omo Tana area. In ancient times, that territory was inhabited by southern Cushites before their migration further south.

Your last source is a f-king school project and you want us to take you seriously. The largest language family in Ethiopia is Cushitic, the same goes for Somaliland/Somalia, Djibouti and Eritrea. Only in Sudan and Egypt is Cushitic a minority language family because of the widespread use of Arabic.

Dahalo adopted a Cushitic language hence the click sound, a Khoisan substratum they have retained. Nonetheless, the Dahalo live in Eastern Africa and not the Horn of Africa.

So my argument stand, no such thing as "Pre Cushites" in the Horn of Africa.

Btw, some linguists point out the link between Cushitic, Berber and Semitic. So of course we have a connection to Chadic and Omotic even though our language families seperated very early.
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Re: The Anonymous Ajuuraan Dynasty

Post by RoobleAlWaliid »

I can't take Grant serious anymore after that book of Zanj crap he seems like a troll.



Image
Somali Weyn borders not accurate, because there are still many Somali lands not colored under the Oromia region specially from the Dir and Hawiye


Ajuraan
Xawaadle
Degoodi
Gaaljecel etc.

Hawadle from the Mayle Samaale
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The Gaaljecel and Degoodi who are related and claim to be descent from Gardheere Samaale

Image
Image
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Are not part of the Hawiye clan.

I have fixed the map and it's errors.

Garre of whom half of the clan is Dir.
Image
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Gariire and Gurre which an old Somali clan map even proves
Image

They today inhabit the Qarsadula, Gura-damol and Gorobakaks of the Somali region.

The Gaadsen and the Surre whom inhabit the Doolo Odo and Dolobay woredas.
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Re: The Anonymous Ajuuraan Dynasty

Post by Grant »

Hildiid,

You have proved nothing. I doubt you have even read the recent research.

Rooble,

That's pure obfuscation. A few picayune changes in a map do not change the distinctions between the Samaale and the non-Samaale on it. For purposes of this discussion, the Dir and Hawiye are both Samaale.

FYI: The Book of the Zanj is the premier source for early East African History. It was recorded by Shaykhs of the Banaadir Ullema.
-----------------------------------------------

Either of you gentlemen can read any recent UN publication on the Somali Minorities to see the academics and the UN have researched positions that disagree with you utterly; and they have begun to distinguish between the indigenous and the non.

https://www.culturalsurvival.org/ourpub ... minorities

"A second minority category includes the diverse group of farmers who are not ethnic Somalis, living in much the same areas as the Rahanweyn and Digil. They include remnants of indigenous peoples, some of them originally speakers of the Cushitic languages (such as the Shebelle and Gabaweyn) ..." These are some of the Kasur.

So the only people you are fooling are yourselves. Cushitic languages do not necessarily imply Samaale speakers. The aboriginals have been hidden for a long time, but are now being found.
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Re: The Anonymous Ajuuraan Dynasty

Post by Xildiiid »

^
I've read your sources and it just a regurgitation of hypothesis coined by Eurocentric 'scholars' and nowhere in your sources do I find Khoisan. So stop presenting your wishes and beliefs as facts.

I have proved that Proto Cushitic was spoken in the Horn of Africa as early as 6000 B.C. and that most linguists believe Proto Afro-Asiatic originated in the Horn of Africa.

Reer Shabeelle are descendants of former Bantu slaves owned by the Ajuuraan. They were not Cushitic speakers originally.

Cushitic is the largest language family in the Horn of Africa and it's a language family that connects the Somali, Afar, Beja, Saho, Oromo, Sidama, Agaw etc. Culturally, linguistically and genetically we're very similar and we're also indigenous to the Horn of Africa.
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Re: The Anonymous Ajuuraan Dynasty

Post by Grant »

OK, Hildiid. Now place the Samaale within that context. You are part of the southern division of the Eastern Cushitic. By far your closest relative is the Oromo, with a separation date of only about 2000 years. It's the northern division, the Afar-Saho that goes back 6000 years.

"Khoisan" used to appear regularly in the literature, but was considered inappropriate because of the association with the southern African tribes.
It is still used up to the Somali border, but has been replaced there by the term "pre-Cushitic", I suppose in part because of the sensitivities of folks like you. The Aweer, Eyle and Midgan are included in many Khoisan lists; other minority groups probably should also be. You will not have trouble finding the term "pre-Cushitic".

Reer Shebelle cannot be Bantu slaves owned by the Ajuuraan. Importation of the Bantu slaves began about 1825. The Ajuuraan were gone by 1700. The Gabaweyn and Shebelle are both part of the Kasur.

Notice that the Gabaweyn, the Eyle, the Shebelle, the Midgan, etc., are not among the relatives you name. These people were indigenous and have a separate history.
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Re: The Anonymous Ajuuraan Dynasty

Post by Xildiiid »

Why should I put Samaale in that context?

The Somali language is older than the concept of Samaale.

Again you're mixing things (6000 years and 6000 B.C) only to inject your opinions. The split between east Cushitic speaking groups is less than 3500 years. The Somali language still share approximately 30% of its vocabulary with the Afar and to lesser extent Saho. The Omo-Tana hypothesis is not considered in modern linguistics anymore and the majority of linguists believe that the original homeland of east Cushitic is the lowland area of the Red Sea (Eritrea).

Gabooye cluster with other Somalis on genetic tests, their culture is Somali and they look Somali, so who put them in the Khoisan category if it's not you and you're trying to sell your wishes as facts?

Midgaan comes from terms 'midig maal' which is a Somali term and the reer Shabelle are part of the 'Jareerweyne' umbrella denoting their Bantu origin. Slaves were imported during and after the Ajuuraan empire.

The term "Pre Cushites" is only relevant when discussing migrations in East Africa where Khoisan preceded Cushitic speaking groups but not the Horn of Africa.
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Re: The Anonymous Ajuuraan Dynasty

Post by Grant »

Hildiid,

You put Samaale in that context because that is the context it is in. Before Samaale, the language was proto-Sam and before that it was southeastern Cushitic. The Samaale language became official in 1972 and every effort was made to deny and wipe out all other Somali languages, expecially Maay.

Genetic tests are no proof the Gaboye are not indigenous. E1b1b covers most of North Africa and a significant part of the east coast. Do you notice the violet edging on this map and the tint in the area of the Khoisan in southern Africa?

Image

Note that E3b1b and E1b1b are the same thing. In these studies the Khoisan carry high levels of E3b1f-M293. And it is clear from the maps they came right through the Horn. What also seems clear, is that they left just about the time the Samaales arrived. While a pure San haplotype would be "A", these are mixed. A lactose persistence gene is also involved, which would not be expected in non-pastoralist peoples. The pre-Cushites in Somalia are probably just the ones that got left behind.

http://www.pnas.org/content/105/31/10693.full

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn ... led-in-dna

"Although geneticists have extensively debated the mode by which agriculture diffused from the Near East to Europe, they have not directly examined similar agropastoral diffusions in Africa. It is unclear, for example, whether early instances of sheep, cows, pottery, and other traits of the pastoralist package were transmitted to southern Africa by demic or cultural diffusion. Here, we report a newly discovered Y-chromosome-specific polymorphism that defines haplogroup E3b1f-M293. This polymorphism reveals the monophyletic relationship of the majority of haplotypes of a previously paraphyletic clade, E3b1-M35*, that is widespread in Africa and southern Europe. To elucidate the history of the E3b1f haplogroup, we analyzed this haplogroup in 13 populations from southern and eastern Africa. The geographic distribution of the E3b1f haplogroup, in association with the microsatellite diversity estimates for populations, is consistent with an expansion through Tanzania to southern-central Africa. The data suggest this dispersal was independent of the migration of Bantu-speaking peoples along a similar route. Instead, the phylogeography and microsatellite diversity of the E3b1f lineage correlate with the arrival of the pastoralist economy in southern Africa. Our Y-chromosomal evidence supports a demic diffusion model of pastoralism from eastern to southern Africa ≈2,000 years ago."

You are out of your mind with respect to the Ajuuraan Bantus and the "original home" of the Eastern Cushitic. Links or it didn't happen.
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Re: The Anonymous Ajuuraan Dynasty

Post by bareento »

Greetins Mujaahid Grant!

The assertion that oromo and somali language derive from one language 2000 thousand years ago (ie separated only 2000 years ago)
seems erronous to me.
Oromo is my mother tongue and I used to speak somali and I still have a good command in somali.True there are similarities between these language.but these r not of the type u r presenting. In my opinion the two language were highly influneced by another language that is now extinguished.Or at one moment in history these two peoples were brought to live in very close manner probably in one administrative structure
and heavily influenced each other

Let me give u an example :
in somali ear =dhag in oromo ear=gurra.
very different isnt it? however in oromo litsen is dhageyi ie it uses the radical dhag.
The only explanation i got is the extinguished language I was referring to probably used the noun dhag and the verb dhageey.
and the oromo speakers kept only the verb and somalis eventually kept the verb and the noun!

These two languages structure is ,despite a high level of shared vocabularies, r very different...in linguistics these r called sprachbund!
Their relation is best compared to the french and english language relation...no one will consider stating that english is a latin language although a good half of its words derive from french.
My opinion is that wat u guys call KUSHITIC is just a sprachbund!

Cheers

B.
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Re: The Anonymous Ajuuraan Dynasty

Post by Grant »

Big B.,

Thank you for getting in here.

I notice there are a good number of Oromo dialects, some of which are not mutually comprehensible.

http://aboutworldlanguages.com/oromo

"Even though all Oromos believe that they speak one language, there are regional differences, making some of the varieties not mutually comprehensible. Besides phonological differences, there are differences in pronunciation and vocabulary. For instance, the dialects spoken in Ethiopia have borrowed many words from Amharic, whereas those spoken in Kenya have many loanwords from Swahili and English. Among the major varieties are West Central Oromo and Borana-Arsi-Guji."

Also from this exposition:

"Like its close relative, Somali, native Oromo words do not have the consonants /p/, /v/, and /z/."

Then, there's this: http://www.ethnologue.com/country/SO/languages

" Gedo region. 41,600 in Somalia (2000). Status: 5 (Developing). Alternate Names: Southern Oromo. Dialects: Borana (Booran, Boran). Classification: Afro-Asiatic, Cushitic, East, Oromo. Comments: The Oromo variety in Gedo is probably Borana; that in the Lower Jubba region is probably Orma [orc]."
-------------------------------------------

Which Oromo and which afSomali are you comparing?

Two thousand years is a very long time. Perhaps the better analogy than English and French would be to consider Latin the parent of Italian and Spanish, in the same way that Cushitic was the parent of Oromo and Samaale.

Unless you have more to go on, I am going with the professional linguists on this.
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Re: The Anonymous Ajuuraan Dynasty

Post by Xildiiid »

The modern Somali language is much older than the concept of Samaale so in this discussion it's irrelevant and the 'Proto Sam' argument is part of the Omo Tana hypothesis that's now defunct, so I don't know why you keep repeating it as if it was the gospel when it's not.

I've already debunked the genetic nonsense you're regurgitating here in your 'Punt thread'. The E3b haplogroup and Eurasian admixture among some Khoisan is the result of incorporating and intermixing with southern Cushites who also introduced domestication.



Proto Cushitic and Proto East-South Cushitic.
The implications of the subsistence lexeme histories are thus consistent with the linguistic geographical arguments about the history of the early Cushitic expansion. These arguments view the original Proto Cushitic territories as most likely in the southern Red Sea hills. They envision, following the break up of Proto Cushitic society, successive expansion of the descendant communities southwards, first of the Proto Agaw-East-South Cushitic along the northern edges of the Ethiopian highlands, at a later stage the Proto East-South people diverging from the Agaw line of descent and spreading south through the Ethiopian Rift Valley and eastern parts of the Ethiopian highlands.; and third the divergence of the Proto East-South Cushites into Proto Eastern and Proto Southern Cushitic communities with the Proto Southern Cushites spreading from far southern Ethiopia into Northern Kenya.
When the Proto East-South Cushites diverged, the Proto East Cushitic group went east while the Proto South Cushitic group kept going southwards.

The link also states that the southern Cushites reached Northern Kenya approximately the second half of 4th millennia B.C (4000 B.C).

Reconstructed lexicon of Proto Cushitic as well as Proto East Cushitic for different grains and animals place their origin in the eastern part of the Horn of Africa along the Red Sea coast (southern Eritrea) and what is today north eastern/eastern Ethiopia.

Among the reconstructed words are the word for donkey which indicates that Proto Cushitic people were the first people to domesticate the donkey. As well as different wild grains that made up an essential part of their diet just like their ancestors the Proto Afro-Asiatic speaking community.

Source: Windows of the African past: Current approaches to African Archaeobotomi


You're denying that Reer Shabelle were brought by the Ajuuraan because it invalidates your agenda. They do not deny this fact, so the burden of proof is on you.
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Re: The Anonymous Ajuuraan Dynasty

Post by Grant »

Hildiid,

You have debunked exactly nothing. You've given a reference, but no link. The quote is talking about an argument over the expansion, not anything that was proven. Both the northern and southern divisions of the Eastern Cushites are from the Sudan. The northern division lasted so long because the Afar-Saho were already nomads at the time of the Kushitic states.

Here are the Eastern Cushites according to the Kenyans: http://www.enzimuseum.org/peoples-cultu ... n-cushites

"The origin of the Galla (Oromo) is to be found in the highland region around Bali in South-Central Ethiopia and traditions are unanimous in confirming this. The centre of the Galla dispersal is traced around the region, which is currently the homeland of the Boran. Over the years the vital areas of Boran migrations and settlements were the homelands of Dirre and Liban, and the lowland region of Golbo and Wanyama stretching from the east of Lake Rudolf (Turkana) to Qaddaduma and beyond in the east. It also included Dadasha Waraba as the furthest out post of Boran settlement in the north-east directions, in the lower reaches of the Dawa and Ganale Gudda rivers."

If I am not mistaken, part of the Dawa is in Gedo, which would not be anywhere near Eritrea. The Lake and Omo-Tana region is where the Bulk of the Cushitic languages congregate. Eritrea is home to the Semitic languages and the corridor that splits the Cushitic in Ethiopia and along the Red Sea coast, so not a likely candidate just on the face of it.

I am glad to see you've got it down to 4000 years now, but you are going to have to do much better to "prove" anything. You also need to deal with this:

http://www.as.utexas.edu/~wheel/africa/ ... nga_01.htm

Namoratunga

"The cultural background of Namoratunga (somtimes rendered "Ng'amoritung'a," a spelling perhaps closer to the original language) lies shrouded in much mystery, as does its purpose. Evidence for the Namoratungan's cultural heritage is found in the rock art found at Namoratunga I. These petroglyphs closely resemble brands on livestock that the Turkana use. These cattle brands could have come from a common past as Lynch points out in his response to Robert Soper's challenging paper. The cattle brands seem to point to the fact that the Namoratungans probably were ancestors to the present-day Cushitic and Nilotic-speaking peoples.

The cattle burials at Namoratunga I are very interesting though because of the lack of explanation. Were these burials ritual sacrifices or did they see these cows as gods? There seems to be a cattle burial connection between Namoratunga and the Nabta area because Wendorf, a noted expert on Nabta, wrote a paper on cattle burials in the Sahara.

The most striking connection between Namoratunga II and the present day peoples is the connection with the Borana calendar of the modern-day Cushites. If Mark Lynch's astronomical alignments were right, then this would provide much evidence towards the Namoratungans being the ancestors of the present-day Cushites. The other interesting tie here is that the Borana calendar only works if precessed back to 300 BC. This date is very near the radiocarbon date for Namoratunga I. An unanswered question in all of this is why a calendar which does not work anymore is still being passed down. All of this seems to provide much evidence for the Namoratungans being the ancestors of the current day Cushites still living near Lake Turkana."
---------------------------------------------------------

The connections to the Sahara, Kush, the southeastern Cushites, the Oromo and the Samaale should be obvious. The date is 300BC, 300 years before the proto-Sam began their march north to the Ogaden plains.
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Re: The Anonymous Ajuuraan Dynasty

Post by James Dahl »

Grant where are you getting these figures for a 14th century Muzaffar dynasty? The Muzaffar came after the Portuguese.
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