Why was the medieval African armies incredibly inferior to the Euroasian medieval armies?

[Musa26]

Interesting.
I want to tknow the direct co-relation between the ostracisation of medal workers and the military might of Somalis.

How were people handling medals and making military equipment viewed in advanced historical empires?

Were they also looked down on in other cultures?
When did this phenomenon start in the Somali culture?

Peace and Bariis. O.H.

This is a common myth. Somalis never looked down on blacksmithing and carpeting.

Infact they valued such people and had great pride in craft work.



This is an assumption tossed out in front because they assume the lower caste status of gabooye(tumaal,yibir and madhibaan). Was because they look down on blacksmithing.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Just because pastoralites valued their occupation did not mean they rejected or looked down on other occupations. Which other somalis engaged in.

If you hear such myths being spewed by people, just know that it is used as an ad hominem attack on Somali culture and excluding everyother sub culture(farming, trading, sea faring, blacksmithing, woodwork,weaving and fishing). All of these are sub cultures that fall within the larger Somali cultural pool.

Its funny they scream about diversity and against a somali monolith. Yet they don't mind stereotyping Somali culture as pejoratively as only nomadic. Which is self contradictory and a denial of the diversity within Somali culture.

that is too much pro somali propaganda bro we all know us somalis ostracized the blacksmiths

[Basra-]

this is not fair. The white man is a superior race, how can they be advanced than the African or black man. Ridiculous.

[GalliumerianSlayer]

this is not fair. The white man is a superior race, how can they be advanced than the African or black man. Ridiculous.

Whites are more superior than the Chinese ? (forget about Later QING dynasty).

[Musa26]

this is not fair. The white man is a superior race, how can they be advanced than the African or black man. Ridiculous.

what an inferiority complex you have

this isnt about white man or blackman. its about the advancements of different regions.

i am willing to wager that the two correct answers as to why the euroasians have a superior armament is because of climate as was stated by somaliler first. i am also willing to wager that if blackmen were the ones occupying england instead of whitemen then the climate would still produce the same results out of the society that lives here.

this chip on your shoulder will do you no good naaya

[Basra-]

Musa@Lol


No chip huuno. Just a reality. Just like Lion being on the top of the food chain in the animal kingdom, so is white men in human race. Did u know--economy trends can be measured on how the whites do ? IF white population are getting poorer and bad jobs, for the blacks its even worst. Meaning---Whites need to do good for Blacks to do better.



If u want proof---show me one African or black state where they have an intact democracy and economic prosperity. Good luck with your research.

[TheMightyNomad]

Interesting.
I want to tknow the direct co-relation between the ostracisation of medal workers and the military might of Somalis.

How were people handling medals and making military equipment viewed in advanced historical empires?

Were they also looked down on in other cultures?
When did this phenomenon start in the Somali culture?

Peace and Bariis. O.H.

This is a common myth. Somalis never looked down on blacksmithing and carpeting.

Infact they valued such people and had great pride in craft work.



This is an assumption tossed out in front because they assume the lower caste status of gabooye(tumaal,yibir and madhibaan). Was because they look down on blacksmithing.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Just because pastoralites valued their occupation did not mean they rejected or looked down on other occupations. Which other somalis engaged in.

If you hear such myths being spewed by people, just know that it is used as an ad hominem attack on Somali culture and excluding everyother sub culture(farming, trading, sea faring, blacksmithing, woodwork,weaving and fishing). All of these are sub cultures that fall within the larger Somali cultural pool.

Its funny they scream about diversity and against a somali monolith. Yet they don't mind stereotyping Somali culture as pejoratively as only nomadic. Which is self contradictory and a denial of the diversity within Somali culture.

that is too much pro somali propaganda bro we all know us somalis ostracized the blacksmiths

Since when does being pro-Somali become propagandist? What do you want me to be instead Anti-Somali? Explaining something that pertains to Somali people from a Somali reality is not out of place. From what reality should we explain it from? 19th century colonial writers?

Let us explore this thinking you have formed here a little bit shall we before i make my arguments. By saying this is pro-Somali propaganda do you believe that Gabooye are not a Somali group innit of itself. If i was pro-Somali i would be for the inclusion of all ethnic Somalis.
Which would mean that all other sub cultures such as (blacksmiths, farming, sea faring, trading,weaving and fishing) is included in the larger Somali cultural pool.

Which in many ways is contradicting to the eurocentric stereotyping of Somalis as being Mono-dimensional nomads. With singular occupational identity instead of a plural one.

If what you mean is that i speak from a biased position , in which i shall assume you think i romanticize Somali culture. Then i would be sure to argue otherwise.

To be clear i am not denying the historical and contemporary reality of Gaboye as being treated grossly differently than other Somalis. They were not treated differently for being blackmiths. Madhiban worshipped trees,snakes and ate all kinds of prohibited food and were hunter gatherers.

They were stigmatized that is the diferentiating part and not ostracized. Because they are viewed as pure Somalis and by an large an integral part of somali caste Society

The challenge that lies ahead is how do we remove this stigmatization as this is against the code of Pan-Somalinism. First we dont do it by misrepresenting it and explaining it from a European reality. We need self assessment from the Somali context and address things out of our own social development.

[Musa26]

This is a common myth. Somalis never looked down on blacksmithing and carpeting.

Infact they valued such people and had great pride in craft work.



This is an assumption tossed out in front because they assume the lower caste status of gabooye(tumaal,yibir and madhibaan). Was because they look down on blacksmithing.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Just because pastoralites valued their occupation did not mean they rejected or looked down on other occupations. Which other somalis engaged in.

If you hear such myths being spewed by people, just know that it is used as an ad hominem attack on Somali culture and excluding everyother sub culture(farming, trading, sea faring, blacksmithing, woodwork,weaving and fishing). All of these are sub cultures that fall within the larger Somali cultural pool.

Its funny they scream about diversity and against a somali monolith. Yet they don't mind stereotyping Somali culture as pejoratively as only nomadic. Which is self contradictory and a denial of the diversity within Somali culture.

that is too much pro somali propaganda bro we all know us somalis ostracized the blacksmiths

Since when does being pro-Somali become propagandist? What do you want me to be instead Anti-Somali? Explaining something that pertains to Somali people from a Somali reality is not out of place. From what reality should we explain it from? 19th century colonial writers?

Let us explore this thinking you have formed here a little bit shall we before i make my arguments. By saying this is pro-Somali propaganda do you believe that Gabooye are not a Somali group innit of itself. If i was pro-Somali i would be for the inclusion of all ethnic Somalis.
Which would mean that all other sub cultures such as (blacksmiths, farming, sea faring, trading,weaving and fishing) is included in the larger Somali cultural pool.

Which in many ways is contradicting to the eurocentric stereotyping of Somalis as being Mono-dimensional nomads. With singular occupational identity instead of a plural one.

If what you mean is that i speak from a biased position , in which i shall assume you think i romanticize Somali culture. Then i would be sure to argue otherwise.

To be clear i am not denying the historical and contemporary reality of Gaboye as being treated grossly differently than other Somalis. They were not treated differently for being blackmiths. Madhiban worshipped trees,snakes and ate all kinds of prohibited food and were hunter gatherers.

They were stigmatized that is the diferentiating part and not ostracized. Because they are viewed as pure Somalis and by an large an integral part of somali caste Society

The challenge that lies ahead is how do we remove this stigmatization as this is against the code of Pan-Somalinism. First we dont do it by misrepresenting it and explaining it from a European reality. We need self assessment from the Somali context and address things out of our own social development.

fair points. but you are right i am driving at the point that the blacksmiths are not somalis i say this not to add to the culture of stigmatising minority groups but because to be a somali is not a matter of nationality but a matter of ethnicity, i have zero dna or other scientific proofs to back my point up (maybe because no scientific research has been done on this matter yet by anyone).
which leaves me to define who is a somali and who is not a somali by how the ancient somalis would of done this themselves and that is the beel(clan) system. the blacksmiths in the horn of africa would not have of belonged to any beel which automatically excludes them from the somali society.

To be clear i am not denying the historical and contemporary reality of Gaboye as being treated grossly differently than other Somalis

good we are at an agreement but you just chose to sugar coat it while i am willing to state the elephant in the room is that as somalis we have ostracized those that could of served our goals militarly

[Musa26]

Musa@Lol


No chip huuno. Just a reality. Just like Lion being on the top of the food chain in the animal kingdom, so is white men in human race. Did u know--economy trends can be measured on how the whites do ? IF white population are getting poorer and bad jobs, for the blacks its even worst. Meaning---Whites need to do good for Blacks to do better.



If u want proof---show me one African or black state where they have an intact democracy and economic prosperity. Good luck with your research.

there is no economic prosperity anywhere on earth naaya

southafrica is doing good though, would that count as a african nation doing good?

[TheMightyNomad]

fair points. but you are right i am driving at the point that the blacksmiths are not somalis i say this not to add to the culture of stigmatising minority groups but because to be a somali is not a matter of nationality but a matter of ethnicity, i have zero dna or other scientific proofs to back my point up (maybe because no scientific research has been done on this matter yet by anyone).

You could also say you have no linguistical,cultural or political proof as well of them not being Somalis. Which kind of invalidates your argument.

May i add that Somalis have essentially been proven to be the same with the data we currently have (both Autosomal & Haplogroup based). . F.e. one of the studies used in the video utilized both "Ethiopian" & "Somalia" Somalis(Gaboye included) and found no meaningful differences. They in fact completely overlap in the study's PCA (Principal Component Analysis) / cluster: https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-zKIh ... 3.g001.png
So to say the least Gabooye are Somali not matter how you look at it. You cannot falsefie that.

which leaves me to define who is a somali and who is not a somali by how the ancient somalis would of done this themselves and that is the beel(clan) system. the blacksmiths in the horn of africa would not have of belonged to any beel which automatically excludes them from the somali society.

Gabooye are seperate Somali clans in their own right. The simple fact is that Somalis both past & contemporary did define Gabooye as Somali and as an integral part of their social structure.

Btw Beel means community. The word for clan would be ''Qolo'', nevertheless they have always been substantial part of Somali society. Which dwarfs this myth of exclusion.

But what it does challenge is this perpetuation of the mono-dimensional Somali.

To be clear i am not denying the historical and contemporary reality of Gaboye as being treated grossly differently than other Somalis

good we are at an agreement but you just chose to sugar coat it while i am willing to state the elephant in the room is that as somalis we have ostracized those that could of served our goals militarly

We dont agree actually. Qouting me out of context like that. They were not ostracized but instead stigmatized which is the key differentiation not because of their occupation as blacksmith.

You are getting carried away here. The kind of blacksmithing done by gabooye was pretty rudimentary with their artisan making sandals,leather matts, knives and poison. Dont know how that would serve our supposed military goals, still much of those handy things were used & appreciated by nomads and farmers alike.

[Khalid Ali]

basra is right the white man is superior the white man rules mucof the world build much of the technology humanity is so proud they have done very scientific advanced research nasa is looking for water on Mars where as blacks in africa dont even have clean drinking water here on earth.

[TheMightyNomad]

basra is right the white man is superior the white man rules muc of the world build much of the technology humanity is so proud they have done very scientific advanced research nasa is looking for water on Mars where as blacks in africa dont even have clean drinking water here on earth.

I know you are trolling but i will entertain you for a bit. Modernity is not the sole 'invention' of Westernization, but more over, 'modernity' is the accumulated Conquest of the Western world

Africans were part of modernity, how many Arabs and Asians were also part of creating modernity? Modernity may have been assembled in a White man's house but by many non-White people. So no one race can claim everything in modernity. Modernity does not imply West or White. It has been and is the product of a global human effort

Furthermore modernity is a technological state and has zero ethical considerations in its construction. Modernity has nothing to do with degrees of civilization, in the humane usage of the term.

For example <<the most uncivilized inhumane society may have advanced weapons, which they use to destroy nature and other humans. Would it be correct to say that possession of weapons of modern warfare automatically implied civilization? >>

[NoAngst]

Furthermore modernity is a technological state and has zero ethical considerations in its construction. Modernity has nothing to do with degrees of civilization, in the humane usage of the term.

How exactly do you become modern without becoming civilized (civilized here means: Economically Developed). Somalis are uncivilized and therefore not modern. It is reflected in our customs, attitude, beliefs, behavior, and so on.

[TheMightyNomad]

Furthermore modernity is a technological state and has zero ethical considerations in its construction. Modernity has nothing to do with degrees of civilization, in the humane usage of the term.

How exactly do you become modern without becoming civilized (civilized here means: Economically Developed). Somalis are uncivilized and therefore not modern. It is reflected in our customs, attitude, beliefs, behavior, and so on.

Well the West achieved technological & economic progress through imperialism , as did all other previous empires before them.

Civilization cannot be defined by the height of tall buildings, but only by the humanity between human beings. The word Civilized is often muddied with modernity. Modernity is a technological state not a status on humanity. Technological accomplishment have no connection to social development which constitutes civilized behavior. The western world has redefined civilization to continuously point away from glorifying Africa in any respect. Even Somalis have borrowed these mangled terms to define themselves. The civil conduct between people in the poorest nomadic regions of Somalia are far more civilized than the heartless inner cities of Europe and America. The way in which neighbors care and interact with each other, looking after each others children is Somali humanity. Families responsibility to collectively share economic burdeons is humanity. Modernity only describes the technologies which one uses. And often because of the glaring lights of the Western cities of the dammed.....

The average Qaxooti trades modernity for humanity and think they are making progress.

[TheMightyNomad]

You said << It is reflected in our customs, attitude, beliefs, behavior, and so on.>>

Cultural values can exist in the most technologically advanced spaces, without challenge. A pure example of this is how western culture is wrapped up in technology, which debunks the idea of culture being inherently backwards to begin with.

e. It is a false dichotomy to think that Roobdoon & Dabshid is incompatible with modernity or dowry belongs in a bygone era.

Another almost invisible example is how European Gothic traditions and folklore (witches, vampires and elves) are now transplanted into what is accepted as good Hollywood entertainment. "Twillight''

And the same is true for the billion dollar video-game industry. So normalized and obvious that the viewer forgets these are just European cultural folklore in modernity.

And the failure to place African cultures in a modern context kills Africa's ability to extract wisdom, success and development from African cultures.

The real reason most Africans do not take the ethics and the aesthetic of their own diverse culture and put them in modernity is due to mental slavery. Many see Africa's cultures are "backward or impractical" but the truth is most Africans globally do not have the confidence to seek meaningful applications and models for African culture.

Especially because modernity has become a byword for Western culturalization. One does not equal the other.

[James Dahl]

What about the Carthiginians? They were "African" and terrorized Rome for 15 years

the founders of Carthage were actually Phoenicians by origin

Most of Carthage's armies were Berber cavalry and skirmishers, backed up with mercenary heavy infantry. The Carthaginians themselves were not really the army type, though they crewed the best navy in the Mediterranean, and they DID have war elephants!