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zumaale wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:53 am Ramzy
The dominant E1b1b haplotypes found in North Africa and the Middle East are not E-V32. Moreover, you have all sorts claiming to be Bani Hashim from Indonesia to Morocco yet their haplogroups betray their indigenous origins. In the Horn, E-V32 is ubiquitous among Oromos, Somalis and even among the Nilotes in Sudan/Kenya. Any presence it has across the Red Sea is probably due to the Horn Slave Trade and was possibly present among Abraha's troops that were subsequently enslaved by the Arabs.
Can you provide any academic genetic evidence to support your stance? I can. Stop fooling the kid, we both know E-V32 has an insignificant presence beyond East Africa, it is as Kunte Kinte as you can get in the E1b1b family. It is not native to the Arabian peninsular and you know that very well.Sahibzada wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:45 amzumaale wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:53 am Ramzy
The dominant E1b1b haplotypes found in North Africa and the Middle East are not E-V32. Moreover, you have all sorts claiming to be Bani Hashim from Indonesia to Morocco yet their haplogroups betray their indigenous origins. In the Horn, E-V32 is ubiquitous among Oromos, Somalis and even among the Nilotes in Sudan/Kenya. Any presence it has across the Red Sea is probably due to the Horn Slave Trade and was possibly present among Abraha's troops that were subsequently enslaved by the Arabs.
Firstly there are many Saudis/Yemeni that get V32..you simply just have to go and check the E-M35 project
Warya sometimes I wonder if you are really trolling or if you truly believe the bs you spew. What proof do you have for E-V32 being mainly from "Horn Slave trade" or Quranic Abraha? and not ancient Cushites residing in the Arabian Peninsula before Semitic speakers.Cushtic language family is older and their is evidence of a Cushtic substrate in Modern South Arabian Languages(like Mehri spoken in Mahra).
"Militarev identified a Cushitic substratum in Modern South Arabian, which he proposes is evidence that Cushitic speakers originally inhabited the Arabian Peninsula alongside Semitic speakers (Militarev 1984, 18-19; cf. also Belova 2003). According to Václav Blažek, this suggests that Semitic peoples assimilated their original Cushitic neighbours to the south who did not later emigrate to the Horn of Africa."
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _and_J-M12The subdivision of E-M78 in the six common majorclades revealed a pronounced geographic structuring (table1 and fig. 2): Haplogroup E-V65 and the paragroups E-M78* and E-V12* were observed mainly in northern Africa, haplogroup E-V13 was found at high frequenciesin Europe, and haplogroup E-V32 was observed at highfrequencies only in eastern Africa. The only haplogroup showing a wide geographic distribution was E-V22, relatively common not only in northeastern and eastern Africa but also found in Europe and western Asia, up to southern Asia (table 1, fig. 2).
A good percentage of Egyptians are E-V32 kulaha. It does not even surpass 6 percent in the Cruciani study that I presented in the previous post. Moreover, its presence there is not surprising considering the Nilotic Fur and Masalit that live near Egypt are E-V32 rich and have historically been subject to slave raidsSahibzada wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:55 pm Those are two major linguists thats evidence enough for me....ofcourse I believe them over some Surre langaab like yourself.
Cushites had contact with Arabia for thousands of years,way before some red sea slave trade....Also a good percentage of South Egyptians are V32 as well and we all know how close of a relationship the Hijaz had with Egypt.
No one is denying that E-V32 is a major haplogroup of East Cushites and neither am I saying that it originated in Arabia...I have said many times that V32 came from NE Africa but to completely rule out an ancient presence of V32 in Arabia with top linguists saying there is evidence of a Cushite substrate in MSA is ridiculous on your part.
V32 Kunte Kinte of the E1b1b family? Most of those who carry V32 do have substantial SSA blood but no one knows the autosomal profile of the earlier Cushites perhaps they were more similar to Modern Egyptians in terms of their West Eurasian/SSA ratio
.zumaale wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:42 pmA good percentage of Egyptians are E-V32 kulaha. It does not even surpass 6 percent in the Cruciani study that I presented in the previous post. Moreover, its presence there is not surprising considering the Nilotic Fur and Masalit that live near Egypt are E-V32 rich and have historically been subject to slave raidsSahibzada wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:55 pm Those are two major linguists thats evidence enough for me....ofcourse I believe them over some Surre langaab like yourself.
Cushites had contact with Arabia for thousands of years,way before some red sea slave trade....Also a good percentage of South Egyptians are V32 as well and we all know how close of a relationship the Hijaz had with Egypt.
No one is denying that E-V32 is a major haplogroup of East Cushites and neither am I saying that it originated in Arabia...I have said many times that V32 came from NE Africa but to completely rule out an ancient presence of V32 in Arabia with top linguists saying there is evidence of a Cushite substrate in MSA is ridiculous on your part.
V32 Kunte Kinte of the E1b1b family? Most of those who carry V32 do have substantial SSA blood but no one knows the autosomal profile of the earlier Cushites perhaps they were more similar to Modern Egyptians in terms of their West Eurasian/SSA ratio
I ask you again, do you have any academic genetic journal to support your argument that E-V32 ain't an African haplotype? You have no leg to stand on so you resort to linguistic theories to support your argument. E1b1b has a presence in the Hijaz which may indicate the presence of an ancient Hamitic population in the region but there is no genetic study that supports the presence of E-V32 among the populations of the Hijaz and the Middle East unlike E-V22.
Come at me with hard science, this is gonna be fun.
You are hypothesising.Y15945 wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:00 pm Arabian V32 and Horn V32 are not similar. They diverged about 5000 years ago with most V32 middle easterners being Y17750+. From what I have seen, most somalis are Z813+. A lot still have yet to be tested, and I also believe there's a huge V32 split within somalis, some being Z813 and other Y28701+ but Y17750-.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/so ... e=yresults
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V32
I'm only going off the data I see.
I'm not disputing that. It's obvious V32 is not big compared to other haplogroups.On FTDNA, there are a handful of Middle Easterners that are E-V32 and this is reflected in academic studies.
I didn't mention that.There is not enough evidence to connect them with any Arab tribal group tribal either.
It's most likely Y17750- and Z813-. I made the group. I myself am Y17750-. You'd have to sign in to see mine and others' results.Furthermore, there is a question mark over what the SNP of the first group of Somalis is in the FTDNA link you provided is, it has not been identified as Y17750.
No doubt.The SNP's of the Beja, Tigre, Fur Masalit, Maasai, Oromos and some Bantus also needs to also be investigated so as to identify the possible links between them and Somali E-V32 carriers.
What we know is that V32 in Somalis is approx. 4000 years old, arising approx. 9000 years ago in or around egypt. This TMRCA number will not change drastically for the ethnicities that neighbour us. It is much more likely that Y17750 split off and went into the arabian peninsula. From yemen to qatar to jordan, all those that have tested downstream of V32 are Y17750+. All somalis tested downstream of V32 are Y17750-. Only 1 Kuwaiti I have seen on FTDNA that is Y28701+, parent of Y17750 (he is on YFull). Egypt is a different story with a mix of Y17750 and Z813, further strengthening that fact V32 arose there.What if Y17750 is common among the Northern Cushites/Semites for instance?
As you probably know V32 is not very common in 'Abyssinia' anyway, apart from (Southern) Oromos, and even they carry a lot of J. How deep did the slave traders penetrate in to modern-day Ethiopia and Eritrea? Not very deep, I'd guess.Could the handful of E-V32's in the Arabian peninsular be the result of the historical Abyssinian presence in Arabia?
There are more V32 Arabian Peninsula results on FTDNA than there are Horn. Like I said, the fact that so many of them came back with the same result, from so many different countries is quite conclusive. I’m always willing to change my stance, but I’m going by the results at the moment. It only makes sense, that since Somalis are currently 0% Y17750+, you would expect a decreasing gradient of Y17750+ men from North Africa – Horn. I’ve no doubt we will get some Y17750- results for peninsular Arabians, and I’ve also no doubt the current trend in the results will continue. Anything you test you will get anomalies, as an example I didn’t expect V22 to turn up in Northern Europe.zumaale wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:28 am
Whether a handful of Y17750 carriers are Middle Eastern does not support an argument that it is more prevalent in the Middle East than Africa. I am not saying that is your argument, however, the fact that other E-V32 carriers in Africa have not been tested yet to determine their SNP demonstrates that one cannot even hypothesise about the origins of Y17750 or where it predominates. The fact that it is so rare in Arabia could be used to argue that it reflects the random migration of individuals and it does not have an ancient presence in Arabia.
You have done the full Y test but until others do, we are stuck with calculated guesses as to the SNP diversity is among Somalis or the neighbouring ethnic groups. If Egypt has both SNP's, the same could apply in the East African context considering how genetically diverse E1b1b is in East Africa.
The TMRCA of the Somali E-V32 being 4000 years is based on a limited sample that does not represent all Somali E-V32 carriers. Even the researchers admitted this, hence one cannot make concrete assertions about neighbouring populations based on this.
The historical Abyssinian presence I am talking about is pre-Islamic as demonstrated by the conquest of Southern Arabia by Abraha and the fact that Abyssinian slaves were common in Arabia after the defeat of Abraha. Traditional Abyssinian territory extended as far North as Sudan and even controlled Red Sea ports. The Semitic speaking Tigres of Eritrea and Sudan are rich in E-V32. Prior to Islam arriving in the Horn, they were inseparable from their fellow Geez speaking neighbours.
The Oromos were raided in both the Northern and Southern Horn of Africa. The Ajuuran and Southern Somalis used to enslave Southern Oromos such as the Borans. The Borans are E-V32 rich as you are aware. It is the highland Oromos that are more heterogeneous in paternal ancestrty, nonetheless, even they were subject to slave raids.
I need you to clarify a few things please.Y15945 wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:00 pmThere are more V32 Arabian Peninsula results on FTDNA than there are Horn. Like I said, the fact that so many of them came back with the same result, from so many different countries is quite conclusive. I’m always willing to change my stance, but I’m going by the results at the moment. It only makes sense, that since Somalis are currently 0% Y17750+, you would expect a decreasing gradient of Y17750+ men from North Africa – Horn. I’ve no doubt we will get some Y17750- results for peninsular Arabians, and I’ve also no doubt the current trend in the results will continue. Anything you test you will get anomalies, as an example I didn’t expect V22 to turn up in Northern Europe.zumaale wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:28 am
Whether a handful of Y17750 carriers are Middle Eastern does not support an argument that it is more prevalent in the Middle East than Africa. I am not saying that is your argument, however, the fact that other E-V32 carriers in Africa have not been tested yet to determine their SNP demonstrates that one cannot even hypothesise about the origins of Y17750 or where it predominates. The fact that it is so rare in Arabia could be used to argue that it reflects the random migration of individuals and it does not have an ancient presence in Arabia.
You have done the full Y test but until others do, we are stuck with calculated guesses as to the SNP diversity is among Somalis or the neighbouring ethnic groups. If Egypt has both SNP's, the same could apply in the East African context considering how genetically diverse E1b1b is in East Africa.
The TMRCA of the Somali E-V32 being 4000 years is based on a limited sample that does not represent all Somali E-V32 carriers. Even the researchers admitted this, hence one cannot make concrete assertions about neighbouring populations based on this.
The historical Abyssinian presence I am talking about is pre-Islamic as demonstrated by the conquest of Southern Arabia by Abraha and the fact that Abyssinian slaves were common in Arabia after the defeat of Abraha. Traditional Abyssinian territory extended as far North as Sudan and even controlled Red Sea ports. The Semitic speaking Tigres of Eritrea and Sudan are rich in E-V32. Prior to Islam arriving in the Horn, they were inseparable from their fellow Geez speaking neighbours.
The Oromos were raided in both the Northern and Southern Horn of Africa. The Ajuuran and Southern Somalis used to enslave Southern Oromos such as the Borans. The Borans are E-V32 rich as you are aware. It is the highland Oromos that are more heterogeneous in paternal ancestrty, nonetheless, even they were subject to slave raids.
4000 y/o TMRCA. I have got to within 5% of that number using Somalis in the Somali DNA Project. There are Somalis from all Somali regions in the project. The Semitic speaking Tigres of Eritrea and Sudan are V32 rich – Study please. I have seen a freq. of approx. 15% in certain Eritrean ethnic groups but nothing more. Like you said we need more people to test, we always need more people to test. I’m keeping my eyes peeled because the V32 tree will grow a lot in the coming years as more people than ever begin to take an interest.
Yes the TMRCA was from the project. It more of an exercise to see what can be done with a small sample.zumaale wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:50 pmI need you to clarify a few things please.Y15945 wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:00 pmThere are more V32 Arabian Peninsula results on FTDNA than there are Horn. Like I said, the fact that so many of them came back with the same result, from so many different countries is quite conclusive. I’m always willing to change my stance, but I’m going by the results at the moment. It only makes sense, that since Somalis are currently 0% Y17750+, you would expect a decreasing gradient of Y17750+ men from North Africa – Horn. I’ve no doubt we will get some Y17750- results for peninsular Arabians, and I’ve also no doubt the current trend in the results will continue. Anything you test you will get anomalies, as an example I didn’t expect V22 to turn up in Northern Europe.zumaale wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:28 am
Whether a handful of Y17750 carriers are Middle Eastern does not support an argument that it is more prevalent in the Middle East than Africa. I am not saying that is your argument, however, the fact that other E-V32 carriers in Africa have not been tested yet to determine their SNP demonstrates that one cannot even hypothesise about the origins of Y17750 or where it predominates. The fact that it is so rare in Arabia could be used to argue that it reflects the random migration of individuals and it does not have an ancient presence in Arabia.
You have done the full Y test but until others do, we are stuck with calculated guesses as to the SNP diversity is among Somalis or the neighbouring ethnic groups. If Egypt has both SNP's, the same could apply in the East African context considering how genetically diverse E1b1b is in East Africa.
The TMRCA of the Somali E-V32 being 4000 years is based on a limited sample that does not represent all Somali E-V32 carriers. Even the researchers admitted this, hence one cannot make concrete assertions about neighbouring populations based on this.
The historical Abyssinian presence I am talking about is pre-Islamic as demonstrated by the conquest of Southern Arabia by Abraha and the fact that Abyssinian slaves were common in Arabia after the defeat of Abraha. Traditional Abyssinian territory extended as far North as Sudan and even controlled Red Sea ports. The Semitic speaking Tigres of Eritrea and Sudan are rich in E-V32. Prior to Islam arriving in the Horn, they were inseparable from their fellow Geez speaking neighbours.
The Oromos were raided in both the Northern and Southern Horn of Africa. The Ajuuran and Southern Somalis used to enslave Southern Oromos such as the Borans. The Borans are E-V32 rich as you are aware. It is the highland Oromos that are more heterogeneous in paternal ancestrty, nonetheless, even they were subject to slave raids.
4000 y/o TMRCA. I have got to within 5% of that number using Somalis in the Somali DNA Project. There are Somalis from all Somali regions in the project. The Semitic speaking Tigres of Eritrea and Sudan are V32 rich – Study please. I have seen a freq. of approx. 15% in certain Eritrean ethnic groups but nothing more. Like you said we need more people to test, we always need more people to test. I’m keeping my eyes peeled because the V32 tree will grow a lot in the coming years as more people than ever begin to take an interest.
Are you saying that all the Somalis in the DNA Project of yours have a TMRCA of 4000 based on your calculations? If so that is too small a sample bro and not all have done the Y-67 test.
Are they from all clans that possess E-V32? What is the SNP clan breakdown and do you have the SNP's of any other African E-V32's.
Lastly, are the Arab E-V32 carriers on FTDNA, the same ones found in the following set of results https://www.familytreedna.com/public/E3 ... e=yresults ? If so, I counted less than 20? Am I missing any bro or are other results to be found in the SNP page?
TIGRE: In Trombetta's 2015 study, 60 percent of them were found to be E-V32 but a larger sample would be more definitive as they only tested 5 of them.
Lastly, have you by any chance done a TMRCA for Somali HG T carriers and any idea as to which population they are closer to.
Firstly, thanks for your cooperation.Y15945 wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:29 pmYes the TMRCA was from the project. It more of an exercise to see what can be done with a small sample.zumaale wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:50 pmI need you to clarify a few things please.Y15945 wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:00 pm
There are more V32 Arabian Peninsula results on FTDNA than there are Horn. Like I said, the fact that so many of them came back with the same result, from so many different countries is quite conclusive. I’m always willing to change my stance, but I’m going by the results at the moment. It only makes sense, that since Somalis are currently 0% Y17750+, you would expect a decreasing gradient of Y17750+ men from North Africa – Horn. I’ve no doubt we will get some Y17750- results for peninsular Arabians, and I’ve also no doubt the current trend in the results will continue. Anything you test you will get anomalies, as an example I didn’t expect V22 to turn up in Northern Europe.
4000 y/o TMRCA. I have got to within 5% of that number using Somalis in the Somali DNA Project. There are Somalis from all Somali regions in the project. The Semitic speaking Tigres of Eritrea and Sudan are V32 rich – Study please. I have seen a freq. of approx. 15% in certain Eritrean ethnic groups but nothing more. Like you said we need more people to test, we always need more people to test. I’m keeping my eyes peeled because the V32 tree will grow a lot in the coming years as more people than ever begin to take an interest.
Are you saying that all the Somalis in the DNA Project of yours have a TMRCA of 4000 based on your calculations? If so that is too small a sample bro and not all have done the Y-67 test.
Are they from all clans that possess E-V32? What is the SNP clan breakdown and do you have the SNP's of any other African E-V32's.
Lastly, are the Arab E-V32 carriers on FTDNA, the same ones found in the following set of results https://www.familytreedna.com/public/E3 ... e=yresults ? If so, I counted less than 20? Am I missing any bro or are other results to be found in the SNP page?
TIGRE: In Trombetta's 2015 study, 60 percent of them were found to be E-V32 but a larger sample would be more definitive as they only tested 5 of them.
Lastly, have you by any chance done a TMRCA for Somali HG T carriers and any idea as to which population they are closer to.
SNP breakdown - Only 1 guy in the project has done any snp downstream of CTS10314/Y15945, He is Z813+(unknown clan, but str's lead me to believe Darod). There is a HJ who is also Z813+. And another Somali on YFull who is Z813+. I havent tested for Z813 directly, but I'm Y18355- and Z809- which lead me to believe I'm Z813- but in reality could also be Z813*. I have some SNP's on order so everything should be clear within a few months.
V32's are dotted around different projects, here is one with a lot of V32. A few have decided to hide their results from non-members so you might not see all of them. There is a little overlap https://www.familytreedna.com/public/E1 ... n=yresults
HG T - 1 HY and 1 Warsangeli(no str's) and 1 unkown(Somali) and 1 Oromo.
Straight comparison between the two Somali T's using this http://www.moseswalker.com/mrca/calculator.asp?q=2
Gives a TMRCA of 1000 years.
The Oromo man is actually closer to the Somali T HY than I am to some Darood V32. All T in Horn probably is related, and represents the same migration.
