SomaliNet Forums

Itrah wrote:

Bilis wrote:Another thing, Trombetta et al. (2015) found that 50% of Somalis in Ethiopia (who, as you know, are mostly Ogaden) were E1b1b carriers. We can assume that the remaining 50% were mainly haplogroup T carriers. The notion that the T clade is or was mainly restricted to the Dir is thus not a given either.

No clan is 100% free of sheegad, but haplogroup T is quite rare in Darods and Hawiyes. Some may have T in those clans due to rape/cheating wives or watnot, but the original lineage of those two clans is E-V32.

T is mainly found in the Dir and a big portion of the Isaaq (who I think are ex-Dir with a new identity).

At any rate, it is rather irrelevant when it comes to ethnic origins as all the above clans have the exact same autosomal DNA despite different lineages.

And that's the only explanation?

Seriously?
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jalaaludin5 wrote:And that's the only explanation?

Seriously?
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Scientists use the euphemism ''non-paternal event'' when they find such discrepancies, they just mean rape or cheating wives.

zumaale wrote:Bilis have you even read Futhul Habash?

The passage you just quoted as evidence is from Laitin and Samatar's book via Wikipedia and is not the complete list of clans that took part in the Futhul Habash wars.

Furthermore, in Futhul Habash, the Harti are mentioned as being from Mait in North Eastern Somalia. Clans from a wide geographic area were drawn to the war against the Abyssinians and not necessarily from the Northwestern region.

Countless of clans are mentioned in Futhul Habash such as the Gurgura (Dir) and as a matter of fact the Gurgura provided more troops than the Mareexan or Harti for instance.

Sure, I've read the Futuh. I actually quoted directly from it a little earlier with regard to the Harti. I'm well aware that other clans participated. I'm also familiar with their functions in the Futuh, their actual numbers, and their alternate names. For instance, the Madhiban are the "El Maya".

Mait is in Sanaag, so it's more in the generic north than either the northeast or northwest.

zumaale wrote:It is an established fact among Somalis that Northern Somalia has always been a homeland for Dir clans

The northwestern area, yes. Certainly not the northeast.

zumaale wrote:the fact that T haplogroup is found among them at high percentages is possibly a reflection of their common paternal ancestry. Take me for example, my clan ancestor is buried in Northern Somalia and his descendants gradually moved South. Now can it be a coincidence that Surres from Southern Somalia who have done a y-dna ancestry test belong to haplogroup T like the majority of their Northern clan kin who have taken the test?

I don't dispute that.

zumaale wrote:Similarly, it is not a coincidence that Daroods that have been tested are predominately haplogroup E-V32. The six (Somalia) individuals tested by Trombetta are from Puntland and they all belong to E-V32.

Where in the study does it indicate that these individuals are from Puntland? Please link to it.

zumaale wrote:Even the 40 plus people that were tested in Jijiga by Plaster et al were overwhelmingly E1b1b1. Jijiga is a mainly Darood city with a Dir minority. Whereas, 80 percent or so of the 18 Somalis tested in Dire Dawa were haplogroup T. Moreover, 75 percent of the the Somalis tested in Djibouti ny Trombetta did not belong to E1b1b and could more than likely belong to haplogroup T. I am not saying we have conclusive proof yet as a subclan by subclan test of all Somalis should be conducted. Nonetheless, one cannot deny that there is a noticeable trend in the results coming out so far, be it on an individual basis or in an academic study.

If you can understand that the lack of E1b1b found among Somalis in Djibouti by Trombetta implies that the majority instead belonged to haplogroup T, why is it difficult for you to accept that the lack of E1b1b found among Somalis in Ethiopia (not just Jijiga) by the same scientists likewise implies that the remainder belonged haplogroup T?

Bilis wrote:

Itrah wrote: While he does at times exaggerate the similarity Cushites have with ''Caucasians'', overall he is not a bad guy. He seems like a well-read person and actually provides academic sources to many of his arguments. You can't say that about clowns like MaliPrince or Yalaxoow.

But I agree, IMO he should tone down on the ''Somalis = Caucasians'' sophistry. It is far more nuanced than that.

This Rooble guy has been trailing me from thread to thread, posting lame passive-aggressive jabs. I figured early on that his malaise was specifically over the blood ties ethnic Somalis have with other Afro-Asiatic populations in Northeast Africa. Something also tells me this fellow knows a lot more about Ethiopia than he does Djibouti.

Anyway, just so it's clear, I never wrote that it's as simple as ''Somalis = Caucasians''. "Caucasoid" also isn't necessarily the same thing as "Caucasian" (the suffix "-oid" means "like" or "similar to"). I know that it's all more nuanced than that. Look out for some new ancient DNA finds tomorrow on my Land of Punt blog, and you'll perhaps begin to understand too.

Just because Rooble has been 'trailing' you does not mean you should resort to making intellectually unsound statements in regard to the Trombetta study. You cannot make conclusions based on insufficient evidence bro nor can you deny the accumulating evidence that links Dirs with haplogroup T or their historical and current habitation of North West Somalia.

To be frank, your arguments in regard to the prevalence of haplogroup T in NW Somalia and among Dirs have been unsubstantiated conjecture.

Itrah wrote:

jalaaludin5 wrote:And that's the only explanation?

Seriously?
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Scientists use the euphemism ''non-paternal event'' when they find such discrepancies, they just mean rape or cheating wives.

Yea right.

pull the other one it's got bells on.
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Itrah wrote:

jalaaludin5 wrote:And that's the only explanation?

Seriously?
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Scientists use the euphemism ''non-paternal event'' when they find such discrepancies, they just mean rape or cheating wives.

I think we can add adoptions and sheegads to the list of meanings that 'non paternal event' conveys.

It does not necessarily mean that one had a 'hoe' or a victim of rape as an ayeeyo.

zumaale wrote:

Itrah wrote:

jalaaludin5 wrote:And that's the only explanation?

Seriously?
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Scientists use the euphemism ''non-paternal event'' when they find such discrepancies, they just mean rape or cheating wives.

I think we can add adoptions and sheegads to the list of meanings that 'non paternal event' conveys.

It does not necessarily mean that one had a 'hoe' or a victim of rape as an ayeeyo.

Lol, in the context of Somali culture I guess that makes more sense.

I have a very simple straight forward question.

Is it possible for those of you who spend so much time reading and studying all this genetic testing/DNA, to remain objective and not be swayed by qabyaalad, cuqdad, hidden insecurities and avoid these innate biases influence your Findings?

I doubt it.
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Bilis wrote:

zumaale wrote:Bilis have you even read Futhul Habash?

The passage you just quoted as evidence is from Laitin and Samatar's book via Wikipedia and is not the complete list of clans that took part in the Futhul Habash wars.

Furthermore, in Futhul Habash, the Harti are mentioned as being from Mait in North Eastern Somalia. Clans from a wide geographic area were drawn to the war against the Abyssinians and not necessarily from the Northwestern region.

Countless of clans are mentioned in Futhul Habash such as the Gurgura (Dir) and as a matter of fact the Gurgura provided more troops than the Mareexan or Harti for instance.

Sure, I've read the Futuh. I actually quoted directly from it a little earlier with regard to the Harti. I'm well aware that other clans participated. I'm also familiar with their functions in the Futuh, their actual numbers, and their alternate names. For instance, the Madhiban are the "El Maya".

Mait is in Sanaag, so it's more in the generic north than either the northeast or northwest.

zumaale wrote:It is an established fact among Somalis that Northern Somalia has always been a homeland for Dir clans

The northwestern area, yes. Certainly not the northeast.

zumaale wrote:the fact that T haplogroup is found among them at high percentages is possibly a reflection of their common paternal ancestry. Take me for example, my clan ancestor is buried in Northern Somalia and his descendants gradually moved South. Now can it be a coincidence that Surres from Southern Somalia who have done a y-dna ancestry test belong to haplogroup T like the majority of their Northern clan kin who have taken the test?

I don't dispute that.

zumaale wrote:Similarly, it is not a coincidence that Daroods that have been tested are predominately haplogroup E-V32. The six (Somalia) individuals tested by Trombetta are from Puntland and they all belong to E-V32.

Where in the study does it indicate that these individuals are from Puntland? Please link to it.

zumaale wrote:Even the 40 plus people that were tested in Jijiga by Plaster et al were overwhelmingly E1b1b1. Jijiga is a mainly Darood city with a Dir minority. Whereas, 80 percent or so of the 18 Somalis tested in Dire Dawa were haplogroup T. Moreover, 75 percent of the the Somalis tested in Djibouti ny Trombetta did not belong to E1b1b and could more than likely belong to haplogroup T. I am not saying we have conclusive proof yet as a subclan by subclan test of all Somalis should be conducted. Nonetheless, one cannot deny that there is a noticeable trend in the results coming out so far, be it on an individual basis or in an academic study.

If you can understand that the lack of E1b1b found among Somalis in Djibouti by Trombetta implies that the majority instead belonged to haplogroup T, why is it difficult for you to accept that the lack of E1b1b found among Somalis in Ethiopia (not just Jijiga) by the same scientists likewise implies that the remainder belonged haplogroup T?

Puntland

Look at the map son and you will observe that the samples were collected in Puntland. The points on the map correlate to where the samples were obtained from. Look at figure S5 in supplementary materials 1.

Ethiopian Samples

I did not argue that the other 50 percent of samples could possibly not be haplogroup T. I challenged your assertion that they were necessarily Ogaden because Southern K5 is diverse and in particular Gode zone.

zumaale wrote: Just because Rooble has been 'trailing' you does not mean you should resort to making intellectually unsound statements in regard to the Trombetta study. You cannot make conclusions based on insufficient evidence bro nor can you deny the accumulating evidence that links Dirs with haplogroup T or their historical and current habitation of North West Somalia.

To be frank, your arguments in regard to the prevalence of haplogroup T in NW Somalia and among Dirs have been unsubstantiated conjecture.

What is this evidence you speak of? As far as I'm aware, not one study explicitly says that haplogroup T is mainly found among either Dir or Ogaden. They instead only indicate high frequencies in specific areas in the Somali territories (e.g. Dire Dawa). We then draw inferences from that based on whatever clans are numerically dominant in those areas.

Both you and I are hypothesizing that T is found at high frequencies among Somalis in Djibouti and Ethiopia, respectively, based on the lower E1b1b frequencies in those areas in Trombetta. However, neither of us knows this for certain since the non-E1b1b clades were not indicated.

Also, remember that haplogroup T is apparently found at notable frequencies among Benadiri. So it's not just an Ogaden, Djibouti and Woqooyi thing; it is more complicated than that.

zumaale wrote: I did not argue that the other 50 percent of samples could possibly not be haplogroup T. I challenged your assertion that they were necessarily Ogaden because Southern K5 is diverse and in particular Gode zone.

None of the Ethiopian Somali samples are Bantu as they were checked for E-M2 and their mtDNA was analyzed in other studies and no Bantu lineages (like L1c/L3e etc) detected.

Most likely scenario is the remaining 50% was T. But the sample size was low.. anything under 30 samples is sketchy, imo.

Itrah wrote:No clan is 100% free of sheegad, but haplogroup T is quite rare in Darods and Hawiyes. Some may have T in those clans due to rape/cheating wives or whatnot, but the original lineage of those two clans is E-V32.

T is mainly found in the Dir and a big portion of the Isaaq (who I think are ex-Dir with a new identity).

Haplogroup T is a paternal lineage. It has nothing to do with wives. The haplogroup is also hardly exclusive to the Dir; even Benadiri have it (see my comment above).

Itrah wrote:At any rate, it is rather irrelevant when it comes to ethnic origins as all the above clans have the exact same autosomal DNA despite different lineages.

True.

Bilis wrote:Haplogroup T is a paternal lineage. It has nothing to do with wives. The haplogroup is also hardly exclusive to the Dir; even Benadiri have it (see my comment above).

Dude, I know that. It was referring to wives who say they gave birth to a person of clan X but actually is clan Y due to non-paternity.

The dominant lineage in a clan is usually the ''real one'', while the minor ones are mainly due to non-paternal events. So yeah, any Somali clan can have T, but it does not mean it is their real lineage or most common one.

Itrah wrote: Dude, I know that. It was referring to wives who say they gave birth to a person of clan X but actually is clan Y due to non-paternity.

Ok, but I don't think that's it either since abtirsi was more rigid in the past.

Also, why do you think Benadiri have high frequencies of haplogroup T? They are the only Somali group identified by name (rather than indirectly by location) as bearers of the clade.

Itrah wrote:The dominant lineage in a clan is usually the ''real one'', while the minor ones are mainly due to non-paternal events. So yeah, any Somali clan can have T, but it does not mean it is their real lineage or most common one.

Not necessarily. For example, some studies on the Maasai indicate that they have as high as 50% E1b1b due to absorbing Cushitic males over the years, while Trombetta has it at only around 20%.

Bilis wrote:Anyway, why do you think Benadiri have high frequencies of haplogroup T? They are the only Somali group identified by name (rather than indirectly by location) as bearers of the clade.

Barawa has a Dir community nearby, lol.

They are called Biyomaal I think.. Could be them.

Or the Tuuni could be T. Who knows..