JUGJUGWACWAC DNA RESULTS!!!

[Xildiiid]

Cimraan live with Maxamed Abokor specifically Nuux Maxamed while Sambuur reside with Muuse Abokor mainly Uduruxmiin and the coastal Biciide.

Yep, the HJ clans that live from eastern Berbera, Togdheer and Hawd are Maxamed Abokor. In particular Nuux Maxamed. The city of Karin in Saaxil is where Maxamed Abokor ends and from there Samane takes over and merges with Muuse until the city of Siyaara and from Siyaara to Xiis it's strictly Muuse Abokor. Even Aadan Maxamed (Aadan Madoobe) and Yeesif Maxamed reside with Nuux.

One of the soo raac in the Ciise lineage (Wardiiq sub clan) is Yeesif. Wardiiq is the lineage of the Ciise Sultan and during the SNM struggle, the late Ciise sultan and his sub clan supported the Isaaq unlike the Mamasaan (Ina Cumar Gheelles clan). Another Soo raac sub clan is originally Toljeclo.

It's not about abtirsi. Futuh al Habesha proves that Arap can't be the maternal uncle of Isaaq. It's impossible. Everything serves a purpose. The landlocked Dhulbahante was under Isaaq domain and by claiming kinship, it strengthened ties and it improved their prospects.

[zumaale]

Xildiiid

Futhul Habash does not prove or disprove anything. It cannot be used to dismiss the Bah Isaaq Harti link. The Dhulbahante were not that disadvantaged, historically speaking, to require an alliance with Isaaq in order to access the sea as their fellow Warsangeli and MJ Hartis were known to have access to the coast.

Thanks for the info on HJ subclans.

[LiquidHYDROGEN]

Lol@Bah Isaaq. Isaaq is the youngest Somali clan. Habr Magaadle itself was a small coastal clan and only first came into prominence during the Xabashi wars. How can they be the maternal ancestors of Harti, let alone Arap?

[Xildiiid]

Zumaale,

Of course it can.

Harti and Habar Magaadle took part in the same war. Harti was already an established clan family when Arap wasn't. That means that Siciid, the son of Harti, is older than Arap.

It's impossible for Dhulbahante (Siciid Harti) to have an Arap mother.

[zumaale]

Lol@Bah Isaaq. Isaaq is the youngest Somali clan. Habr Magaadle itself was a small coastal clan and only first came into prominence during the Xabashi wars. How can they be the maternal ancestors of Harti, let alone Arap?

Youngest Somali clan? Based on what, the fraudulent Bani Hashim claim?

Going by your logic, the Habar Yoonis were not also spawned by a granddaughter of the Geeri Kombe clan patriarch. Whho do you think Yoonis in Habar Yoonis refers to?

[zumaale]

Zumaale,

Of course it can.

Harti and Habar Magaadle took part in the same war. Harti was already an established clan family when Arap wasn't. That means that Siciid, the son of Harti, is older than Arap.

It's impossible for Dhulbahante (Siciid Harti) to have an Arap mother.

As I highlighted to you in a previous post, Harti was an established clan probably due to their greater numbers in contrast to Arab who were still part of the Habar Magadle matrilineal alliance. Absame were not even divided at that point and contributed less troops than Geri Kombe but look at them today, they are identified by their subclans whereas Geri are still identified as Geri due to their lesser numbers.

[Xildiiid]

The granddaughter of Geri and daughter of Aba Yoonis giving birth to Habar Yoonis, who did not exist as a clan during Futuh, is plausible because it fits historically and genealogically.

The Arap-Dhulbahante connection is genealogically impossible. Arap trace around 18-19 names to sheikh Isxaaq while Dhulbahante trace 20 names to Siciid Harti and 27-28 to Darood Jabarti.

Siciid Harti is older than Arap.

[LiquidHYDROGEN]

Zumaale, I'm Isaaq. I know my lineage and clan more than you. There is no Isaaq-Harti connection. We are the youngest based on simple inference and common sense using history books (futuh-al-xabasha), speaking to Isaaq elders or clan expansion/migration patterns (e.g. 300-400 yrs ago Isaaq was a tiny coastal tribe and today they live in every area of SL, Djibouti and K5).

As for Bani Hashim, what has that got to do with anything? Have you ever seen me claim that? In fact, have you ever seen me claim any arab lineage at all?

[zumaale]

The granddaughter of Geri and daughter of Aba Yoonis giving birth to Habar Yoonis, who did not exist as a clan during Futuh, is plausible because it fits historically and genealogically.

The Arap-Dhulbahante connection is genealogically impossible. Arap trace around 18-19 names to sheikh Isxaaq while Dhulbahante trace 20 names to Siciid Harti.

Siciid Harti is older than Arap.

Dude, genealogy does not count for shit like I highlighted to you because of disparity in the length of abtirsis.

Historically speaking, I also demonstrated that a clan's independent existence in the 15th century owes a lot to its population numbers.

There is no way that it could be proven without doubt that Arab was not the ancestor of a section of the Harti clans and all we can go by is Harti oral tradition.

[zumaale]

Zumaale, I'm Isaaq. I know my lineage and clan more than you. There is no Isaaq-Harti connection. We are the youngest based on simple inference and common sense using history books (futuh-al-xabasha), speaking to Isaaq elders or clan expansion/migration patterns (e.g. 300-400 yrs ago Isaaq was a tiny coastal tribe and today they live in every area of SL, Djibouti and K5).

My argument was that they are not a young clan in that they have roots that go back more than a thousand years in the Horn. You are right in highlighting that they expanded from the coast of Northern Somalia like the Harti too but that does not equate to their age in the Horn.

I know you are consistent in rejecting the Bani Hashim claim but the only reason why I mentioned is because many falsely use that argument to argue that they are a young Somali clan when the evidence points to the contrary.

[LiquidHYDROGEN]

You make no sense. It's you who has to prove that Harti are Bah Arab, not the other way around. The burden of proof is on the one who has made the claim. On the one hand you reject our oral tradition, on the other hand you accept the Dooro one.

If that's the case then I descend from Hercules because that's my oral tradition.

[zumaale]

You make no sense. It's you who has to prove that Harti are Bah Arab, not the other way around. The burden of proof is on the one who has made the claim. On the one hand you reject our oral tradition, on the other hand you accept the Dooro one.

If that's the case then I descend from Hercules because that's my oral tradition.

I am just stating that their oral traditions cannot be disproved nor did I state your oral traditions that the Bah Magadle were mainly a coastal clan is false. I agree with that assertion of yours.

What I did counter is that Bah Magadle and the Isaaq as a whole are a recent addition to the Somali ethnic group as some pro-Hahemites claim in light of the genetic evidence and Somali historiography.

p.s I am just looking at the evidence in front of us in an objective manner and have no bias towards Daroods considering my clan background.

[Xildiiid]

The granddaughter of Geri and daughter of Aba Yoonis giving birth to Habar Yoonis, who did not exist as a clan during Futuh, is plausible because it fits historically and genealogically.

The Arap-Dhulbahante connection is genealogically impossible. Arap trace around 18-19 names to sheikh Isxaaq while Dhulbahante trace 20 names to Siciid Harti.

Siciid Harti is older than Arap.

Dude, genealogy does not count for shit like I highlighted to you because of disparity in the length of abtirsis.

Historically speaking, I also demonstrated that a clan's independent existence in the 15th century owes a lot to its population numbers.

There is no way that it could be proven without doubt that Arab was not the ancestor of a section of the Harti clans and all we can go by is Harti oral tradition.

Population numbers indicate that a clan is established. Arap was not an independent clan at that time so if their argument was "We're Bah Magaadle", it would make sense. However the father of Siciid (Dhulbahante) was already established in that area in contrast to Arap. In other words, Dhulbahante is older than the Arap they claim is their apti.

[zumaale]

Xildiiid

Harti had the numbers not to be allied with their Geri brother hence why they had formed their own identity. Bah Magadle went to war as one even though they are meant to be a coalition of four brothers.

Compare Geri and Habar Yoonis today and one would assume that there is no way that Geri could have been older than Sicid Garxajis if your reasoning applied.

Clan numbers have fluctuated over the past millennium as a results of wars or calamities and they are not necessarily a reliable factor when looking at the seniority of clans.

Neither are abtirsis if they are not recorded accurately by skipping generations hence my argument that there is no certain way of dismissing Harti oral traditions that their maternal ancestors were Arab or Horone.

If only it was relatively easy to prove as y-dna ancestry!

[Xildiiid]

The difference is that Habar Yoonis is not older than Geri just like Isaaq as a clan is not older than Magaadle and therefore the possibilities of having a matrilineal connection to these two clans is logical and it's plausible that the granddaughter of Aba Yonis lived at the time of Siciid Garxajis and bore him the son Carre.

On the contrary, when you have an established clan like Harti, with many sub clans under one umbrella, it's illogical to claim matrilineal connection to a clan that's not established.
The nickname Arap was given much later, approximately 200 years later, so why not call themselves 'Bah Maxamed Sheikh Isxaaq'?