Somalia should embrace communism
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Re: Somalia should embrace communism
Aliyyi if you forbid loans that brings benefits, no one has incentives to lend money...
Gurey, interesting post!
Neverthless u are focussing on the shortcomings of the system...these shortcmings do exist ..but I dont believe one can right out discard the system based on interest on these grounds!
I am afraid that u are identifying interest rate with floating interest rate...these are in fact totally different.
Before Nixon interest rates existed. Nixon just added new features to it.
Communists did not discard interest rates, they were only against speculation!
The question is if lending brings me nthg, why would I lend my money?
Why would I take the risk of not being paid back?
B.
Gurey, interesting post!
Neverthless u are focussing on the shortcomings of the system...these shortcmings do exist ..but I dont believe one can right out discard the system based on interest on these grounds!
I am afraid that u are identifying interest rate with floating interest rate...these are in fact totally different.
Before Nixon interest rates existed. Nixon just added new features to it.
Communists did not discard interest rates, they were only against speculation!
The question is if lending brings me nthg, why would I lend my money?
Why would I take the risk of not being paid back?
B.
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Re: Somalia should embrace communism
I rejoice to see that you've not been fetched by the fictive caricatures of Marx that abound on the web. We had a number of flag-bearers for dialectical materialism on the board some years ago with whom Mad Mac locked horns in a forest-shaking combat for supremacy. Does anyone recall? The karbaashing was amusing.
To anatomise capitalism is healthy. I think a new ordering of society is the pressing need for the millenial generation. But I don't see what bearing communism has on Qabil. You can surgically remove the ills of clannism without ditching capitalism, if such our system may be called, for I would argue that we've never had anything like a free market nor anything resembling socialism. Our system is basically an oligarchy with a heavy layer of cronyism.
All the same, good to see the Reds are still alive.
To anatomise capitalism is healthy. I think a new ordering of society is the pressing need for the millenial generation. But I don't see what bearing communism has on Qabil. You can surgically remove the ills of clannism without ditching capitalism, if such our system may be called, for I would argue that we've never had anything like a free market nor anything resembling socialism. Our system is basically an oligarchy with a heavy layer of cronyism.
All the same, good to see the Reds are still alive.
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Re: Somalia should embrace communism
Gurey,
Thank you for your input; there was a joke I once heard and it goes like this;
" I asked an economist to give me her number but all she gave me was an estimate". I am not a 100 % believer of orthodox economic theory. It entails, rationality, incentives, utilities, free information etc. A perfect world. But, some of the basic assumptions are still potent and can emprically be proved.
We cannot discard economic thinking simply because it is not an exact science when our world is governed by concepts borrowed from that world.
Your analysis of the history of usery is on the spot!
But, the key question which I asked and which has been posed by Bareento is this;
- Given the circumstances/conditions/ forces at hand, can we live and progress in a world without interest rates?
Further;
- Are you saying that usery is the same as interest rates?
About the topic;
Marx has been called the prophet, academic and god by one of the proponents of capitalism; Joseph Alois schumpeter.
Marx's greatest contribution to the field of economics was his conceptualisation of labour; surplus value. His political ideology is what has given rise to the labour movements and social democratic governments.
A serious scrutiny of the hawala systems reveal that usery is involved. Countries that have embraced islamic modes of economic transactions do not live in isolation. In a connected economic system, you have complex systems that interplay. The economic system in saudi arabia cannot stand alone if it is not connected to the capitalistic mode in which interest rates are the premium for incurring costs.
Thank you for your input; there was a joke I once heard and it goes like this;
" I asked an economist to give me her number but all she gave me was an estimate". I am not a 100 % believer of orthodox economic theory. It entails, rationality, incentives, utilities, free information etc. A perfect world. But, some of the basic assumptions are still potent and can emprically be proved.
We cannot discard economic thinking simply because it is not an exact science when our world is governed by concepts borrowed from that world.
Your analysis of the history of usery is on the spot!
But, the key question which I asked and which has been posed by Bareento is this;
- Given the circumstances/conditions/ forces at hand, can we live and progress in a world without interest rates?
Further;
- Are you saying that usery is the same as interest rates?
About the topic;
Marx has been called the prophet, academic and god by one of the proponents of capitalism; Joseph Alois schumpeter.
Marx's greatest contribution to the field of economics was his conceptualisation of labour; surplus value. His political ideology is what has given rise to the labour movements and social democratic governments.
A serious scrutiny of the hawala systems reveal that usery is involved. Countries that have embraced islamic modes of economic transactions do not live in isolation. In a connected economic system, you have complex systems that interplay. The economic system in saudi arabia cannot stand alone if it is not connected to the capitalistic mode in which interest rates are the premium for incurring costs.
- gurey25
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Re: Somalia should embrace communism
barentoo this was an answer to you question about the link of interest rates to currency exchanges...
I am aware of the difference.
and yes the communist where against specualation but had no problem with interest and this is where the shortcommings of communism comes from,
they ignore human nature and they ignored the fundamental aspect of the economy the means of exchange, currency.
Now your question is valid..
you said
The question is if lending brings me nthg, why would I lend my money?
Why would I take the risk of not being paid back?
My answer is that you are still thinking in terms of the current system, where you have a financiar class seperate from the capitalist class and the working class.
Why seperate them, infact why do we need a financiar class?
Why do we need commercial banks? Why cant we have other organizations that also raise capital and serve as a storage of savings.
The financiar class has burrowed their roots into every facet of our society and people like you believe that they are indispensable.
They are not..
The Smart Developing countries have all done the same thing they have all managed to tame, domesticate the banks and make them operate with direction and control from the governments to serve the nation and the people, not themselves .
They have leashes, and straps and chains and muzzels on them... they have full control over them..
In contrast you have the US and UK and Most of Europe and as a consequence the developing world where the banks are independant, they have used their wealth to buy their way into power and control the very governments and countries that birthed them...
The Latter countries i was refering to are the successfull countries such as Japan, Korea,Singapore and Taiwan.
China and India have also kept them under control, but have actually smothered them with too much control, even rotwielers need to run free for a while in the fields.
.
Countries in europe that successfully developed to first world status,behaved EXACTLY like Japan and followed the same Formula..
I am refering To Finland of Nokia fame, and Sweden, and Austria..
The Germans have also maintaned control over their finances and their soverienty ...
The countries that have not maintained control and used the banks for the benefit of the country, have ended up today under the very control of the banks.
I am refering to the US and UK and to a lesser extent the rest of Europe through the EU central bank..
I do not want to control and direct these dangerous creatures, the banks and the financier class,
I want to do away with them all together...
While you have already been seduced by them , and see them as innocent and even the natural state of things
I am aware of the difference.
and yes the communist where against specualation but had no problem with interest and this is where the shortcommings of communism comes from,
they ignore human nature and they ignored the fundamental aspect of the economy the means of exchange, currency.
Now your question is valid..
you said
The question is if lending brings me nthg, why would I lend my money?
Why would I take the risk of not being paid back?
My answer is that you are still thinking in terms of the current system, where you have a financiar class seperate from the capitalist class and the working class.
Why seperate them, infact why do we need a financiar class?
Why do we need commercial banks? Why cant we have other organizations that also raise capital and serve as a storage of savings.
The financiar class has burrowed their roots into every facet of our society and people like you believe that they are indispensable.
They are not..
The Smart Developing countries have all done the same thing they have all managed to tame, domesticate the banks and make them operate with direction and control from the governments to serve the nation and the people, not themselves .
They have leashes, and straps and chains and muzzels on them... they have full control over them..
In contrast you have the US and UK and Most of Europe and as a consequence the developing world where the banks are independant, they have used their wealth to buy their way into power and control the very governments and countries that birthed them...
The Latter countries i was refering to are the successfull countries such as Japan, Korea,Singapore and Taiwan.
China and India have also kept them under control, but have actually smothered them with too much control, even rotwielers need to run free for a while in the fields.

Countries in europe that successfully developed to first world status,behaved EXACTLY like Japan and followed the same Formula..
I am refering To Finland of Nokia fame, and Sweden, and Austria..
The Germans have also maintaned control over their finances and their soverienty ...
The countries that have not maintained control and used the banks for the benefit of the country, have ended up today under the very control of the banks.
I am refering to the US and UK and to a lesser extent the rest of Europe through the EU central bank..
I do not want to control and direct these dangerous creatures, the banks and the financier class,
I want to do away with them all together...
While you have already been seduced by them , and see them as innocent and even the natural state of things
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Re: Somalia should embrace communism
“The oppressed are allowed once every few years to decide which particular representatives of the oppressing class are to represent and repress them.” MarxWiglessBidaar wrote:I rejoice to see that you've not been fetched by the fictive caricatures of Marx that abound on the web. We had a number of flag-bearers for dialectical materialism on the board some years ago with whom Mad Mac locked horns in a forest-shaking combat for supremacy. Does anyone recall? The karbaashing was amusing.
To anatomise capitalism is healthy. I think a new ordering of society is the pressing need for the millenial generation. But I don't see what bearing communism has on Qabil. You can surgically remove the ills of clannism without ditching capitalism, if such our system may be called, for I would argue that we've never had anything like a free market nor anything resembling socialism. Our system is basically an oligarchy with a heavy layer of cronyism.
All the same, good to see the Reds are still alive.
- gurey25
- SomaliNet Super
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- Location: you dont wana know, trust me.
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Re: Somalia should embrace communism
WiglessBidaar wrote:I rejoice to see that you've not been fetched by the fictive caricatures of Marx that abound on the web. We had a number of flag-bearers for dialectical materialism on the board some years ago with whom Mad Mac locked horns in a forest-shaking combat for supremacy. Does anyone recall? The karbaashing was amusing.
To anatomise capitalism is healthy. I think a new ordering of society is the pressing need for the millenial generation. But I don't see what bearing communism has on Qabil. You can surgically remove the ills of clannism without ditching capitalism, if such our system may be called, for I would argue that we've never had anything like a free market nor anything resembling socialism. Our system is basically an oligarchy with a heavy layer of cronyism.
All the same, good to see the Reds are still alive.

- gurey25
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Re: Somalia should embrace communism
globetrotter2 wrote:Gurey,
Thank you for your input; there was a joke I once heard and it goes like this;
" I asked an economist to give me her number but all she gave me was an estimate". I am not a 100 % believer of orthodox economic theory. It entails, rationality, incentives, utilities, free information etc. A perfect world. But, some of the basic assumptions are still potent and can emprically be proved.
We cannot discard economic thinking simply because it is not an exact science when our world is governed by concepts borrowed from that world.
Your analysis of the history of usery is on the spot!
But, the key question which I asked and which has been posed by Bareento is this;
- Given the circumstances/conditions/ forces at hand, can we live and progress in a world without interest rates?
Further;
- Are you saying that usery is the same as interest rates?
About the topic;
Marx has been called the prophet, academic and god by one of the proponents of capitalism; Joseph Alois schumpeter.
Marx's greatest contribution to the field of economics was his conceptualisation of labour; surplus value. His political ideology is what has given rise to the labour movements and social democratic governments.
A serious scrutiny of the hawala systems reveal that usery is involved. Countries that have embraced islamic modes of economic transactions do not live in isolation. In a connected economic system, you have complex systems that interplay. The economic system in saudi arabia cannot stand alone if it is not connected to the capitalistic mode in which interest rates are the premium for incurring costs.
Globetroter,
I have never mentioned the hawala system, you have.. i do not undertand the need to mention it.
It is simply a service, to transport or make your funds available in another location.,
Because you are doing a service there is nothing wrong with a fee for your service..
since you have exchange rate flactuations this makes a fee even more important because the hawala may actually lose money in this transaction.
You can arggue that a bank does the same service by providing capital and should thus earn a profit on this transaction..
you are right..
I am against the idea of banks having the right to offer this service in the first place..
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- Posts: 1863
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Re: Somalia should embrace communism
Gurey, are u rejecting any private initiative?
The accumultion of capital is necessary step if u want to make heavy investment.
The bank system helps to drain money from individuals and then to make investment.
B.
The accumultion of capital is necessary step if u want to make heavy investment.
The bank system helps to drain money from individuals and then to make investment.
B.
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Re: Somalia should embrace communism
Dear Gurey,gurey25 wrote:globetrotter2 wrote:Gurey,
Thank you for your input; there was a joke I once heard and it goes like this;
" I asked an economist to give me her number but all she gave me was an estimate". I am not a 100 % believer of orthodox economic theory. It entails, rationality, incentives, utilities, free information etc. A perfect world. But, some of the basic assumptions are still potent and can emprically be proved.
We cannot discard economic thinking simply because it is not an exact science when our world is governed by concepts borrowed from that world.
Your analysis of the history of usery is on the spot!
But, the key question which I asked and which has been posed by Bareento is this;
- Given the circumstances/conditions/ forces at hand, can we live and progress in a world without interest rates?
Further;
- Are you saying that usery is the same as interest rates?
About the topic;
Marx has been called the prophet, academic and god by one of the proponents of capitalism; Joseph Alois schumpeter.
Marx's greatest contribution to the field of economics was his conceptualisation of labour; surplus value. His political ideology is what has given rise to the labour movements and social democratic governments.
A serious scrutiny of the hawala systems reveal that usery is involved. Countries that have embraced islamic modes of economic transactions do not live in isolation. In a connected economic system, you have complex systems that interplay. The economic system in saudi arabia cannot stand alone if it is not connected to the capitalistic mode in which interest rates are the premium for incurring costs.
Globetroter,
I have never mentioned the hawala system, you have.. i do not undertand the need to mention it.
It is simply a service, to transport or make your funds available in another location.,
Because you are doing a service there is nothing wrong with a fee for your service..
since you have exchange rate flactuations this makes a fee even more important because the hawala may actually lose money in this transaction.
You can arggue that a bank does the same service by providing capital and should thus earn a profit on this transaction..
you are right..
I am against the idea of banks having the right to offer this service in the first place..
The Hawala systems are important emprical points of departures when debating the financial system and the concepts of usery and interest rate. A simple service of transporting system they are but the mechanisms that govern them (the foundations they stand upon) is usery ; or to be mild interest rates-
I actually did an experiment a few days ago;
I went to my bank to remit 700 dollars to Kenya; he dollar rate of the Switz frank was 1,23 tthe dollar rate in Kenya was 93 KS.
I was asked to pay that amount and 30 franks . I went to a somali hawala and asked to pay 5 percent of the amount for services. now which one was riba and which one was the cost of capital?
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Re: Somalia should embrace communism
@ Globetrotter,
I think you will find that Joseph Schumpeter was closer to the mark when he wrote that what we have at present is "a system in which the deciding of issues by the electorate is secondary to the election of the men who ought to do the deciding". Whatever this may be called, it's ten miles removed from the will of the people.
But I'm not so sure that direct democracy is a good thing. I believe in the strongman theory of politics. Every progressive measure in society, Eastern or Western, has been introduced against the howling objections of the majority, be it the abolition of capital punishment, the emancipation of the gentle sex, the decriminalisation of homosexuality, the introduction of lesbian porn. The masses are invariably ten years behind visionaries who, gifted with the ability to conjure the future, have the backbone to push through political reforms that posterity regards as elementary common sense.
Sez me: The Horn cries out for a strongman versed in the Enlightenment. How about you?
I think you will find that Joseph Schumpeter was closer to the mark when he wrote that what we have at present is "a system in which the deciding of issues by the electorate is secondary to the election of the men who ought to do the deciding". Whatever this may be called, it's ten miles removed from the will of the people.
But I'm not so sure that direct democracy is a good thing. I believe in the strongman theory of politics. Every progressive measure in society, Eastern or Western, has been introduced against the howling objections of the majority, be it the abolition of capital punishment, the emancipation of the gentle sex, the decriminalisation of homosexuality, the introduction of lesbian porn. The masses are invariably ten years behind visionaries who, gifted with the ability to conjure the future, have the backbone to push through political reforms that posterity regards as elementary common sense.
Sez me: The Horn cries out for a strongman versed in the Enlightenment. How about you?
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Re: Somalia should embrace communism
@Gurey
So you want quit the clan game when your Qabil comes a cropper do you? Fascinating.
So you want quit the clan game when your Qabil comes a cropper do you? Fascinating.
- gurey25
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Re: Somalia should embrace communism
globe , its apples and oranges..
One is a service where your own resource is simply transported to another location, and you paid a fee to use their transport system,
while the other lends you their own resources or someone elses at a fee..
would you believe DHL and FEDEX are exorbitant with their charges and do you wish them to deliver your packages for free?
Hawalas are not different from DHL for me, they are another animal altogether different from banks
One is a service where your own resource is simply transported to another location, and you paid a fee to use their transport system,
while the other lends you their own resources or someone elses at a fee..
would you believe DHL and FEDEX are exorbitant with their charges and do you wish them to deliver your packages for free?
Hawalas are not different from DHL for me, they are another animal altogether different from banks
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- SomaliNetizen
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Re: Somalia should embrace communism
WiglessBidaar wrote:@ Globetrotter,
I think you will find that Joseph Schumpeter was closer to the mark when he wrote that what we have at present is "a system in which the deciding of issues by the electorate is secondary to the election of the men who ought to do the deciding". Whatever this may be called, it's ten miles removed from the will of the people.
But I'm not so sure that direct democracy is a good thing. I believe in the strongman theory of politics. Every progressive measure in society, Eastern or Western, has been introduced against the howling objections of the majority, be it the abolition of capital punishment, the emancipation of the gentle sex, the decriminalisation of homosexuality, the introduction of lesbian porn. The masses are invariably ten years behind visionaries who, gifted with the ability to conjure the future, have the backbone to push through political reforms that posterity regards as elementary common sense.
Sez me: The Horn cries out for a strongman versed in the Enlightenment. How about you?
Holly molly; Wiggles, you are familiar with creative destruction theory?
Gurey,
Free enterprise is an elusive phenomenon.
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Re: Somalia should embrace communism
WiglessBidaar wrote:@Gurey
So you want quit the clan game when your Qabil comes a cropper do you? Fascinating.

I want them to compete in the marketplace and chambers of power instead of camel rustling and poetry glorifying it..
- gurey25
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Re: Somalia should embrace communism
bareento wrote:Gurey, are u rejecting any private initiative?
The accumultion of capital is necessary step if u want to make heavy investment.
The bank system helps to drain money from individuals and then to make investment.
B.
barentoo my friend, au contrair
I am advocating the opposite, i want more private inniative more capitalists less capitalists.
I am an enemy of monopolies of all forms, especially the provision of capital.
The function of the banks should be given to another body, the nature of provision of capital should also change
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