Somali Historians come in including you James Dahl

[Meyle]

Well not related to the current discussion but here is an interesting bit of history, there is a Waaqafeena calendar still used by the Borana today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borana_calendar

One element that has been recently discovered by a man named Laurance R. Doyle is that the standing stone circles in Northeastern Kenya at a place called called Namoratunga, correspond almost precisely with the Waaqafeena Calendar of the Borana.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namoratunga
http://web.archive.org/web/200810290732 ... 0Text%20T1

This is especially interesting because today the area is inhabited by Luo people, the Turkana, but in ancient times this area was inhabited by what linguists refer to as "Cushitic" people, the distant ancestors of Orma, Samaale or Iraqw perhaps. There was extensive archaeological work done there.

http://in-africa.org/wp-content/uploads ... atunga.pdf

What he is probably not aware of is that there are standing stone circles all throughout Somalia as well, and especially in the north that look just like that. Here are photos of the Namoratunga 'calendar'



Now that looks rather familiar doesn't it, there are hundreds of these in Somalia.

Here is a youtube video about this topic:



Since our star is drifting through the universe in orbit around our galaxy and influenced by the gravity of other stars, stars move in the night sky over the centuries, and one of the months no longer exactly lines up with the Namoratunga 'calendar', which led Laurance R. Doyle to conclude the Namoratunga 'calendar' must have been built around 300 BC, when all the stars WOULD have lined up with the stones.

I've seen similar stone formations in south eastern Togdheer, outside a small rural town called Taalobuur, wether those formations are ancient or not is another question. The locals (among them some of my relatives) say its ancient graves.

[Bermooda]

For a long time i wanted to know what is inside the 2 mountains in Hargeisa called Naaso Hablood. I have heard it might be 2 very old pyramids that might even predate the Egyptians.

Also there is some sort of entrance i think but the locals fear going near it because they believe it is cursed and something bad will happen to those who who enters it

[Meyle]

The Somali archeologist Sada Mire have done an archeological survey on those hills and they're not Pyramids however some of the locals say that the Ancient Egyptians saw the hills on one of their many expeditions to Pwenet or the land of their ancestors and that they were inspired by these hills.


I don't think there's an entrance however there are many caves and mountains around Hargeisa that have entrances for instance Laas Geel.



Laas Geel

[Bermooda]

The Somali archeologist Sada Mire have done an archeological survey on those hills and they're not Pyramids however some of the locals say that the Ancient Egyptians saw the hills on one of their many expeditions to Pwenet or the land of their ancestors and that they were inspired by these hills.


I don't think there's an entrance however there are many caves and mountains around Hargeisa that have entrances for instance Laas Geel.



Laas Geel

[Grant]

Grant used to claim the opposite so it doesn't matter what he's posting now. He used to argue that Somalis originally came from North Africa while using the haplogroup as "proof".

I was just pointing that out.

Many Somalis belong to the V32 sub-clade of E1b1b, which is believed to have originated in the vicinity of Egypt. So he's actually not mistaken there.

No one is talking about the different mutations within that haplogroup, we're discussing the haplogroup itself and no most Somalis carry the E-M35 followed by E-M78 (V32)

http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/E1b1b1_Y-DNA.htm

Meyle,

You did check out the map of E1b1b? Did you notice that the population ran from Somalia to Morocco, and that the concentration in Morocco is only 5% less than it is in Somalia? The chief source of information for this group is from around the Tassili plateau in the central Sahara. When the sahara dried up, they migrated to the periphery. The chart to the left of the map shows an origin for E1b1b in the Horn, but this seems to be based on concentration rather than actual knowledge and could be time limited. The Tassili sequences are continuous for thousands of years. There are difficulties in dating the rock art, but Laas Geel could be related.

In any event, what you see as an argument I see as just a matter of definition. Much of the literature still limits "Berbers" to that part of North Africa west of Egypt, which we know is false from recent DNA analysis. If I was referring specifically to E1b1b, and not the Cro-magnon mutation (which I understand from research just this morning has been replaced with "Early Modern Human", or EMH), and I said North Africa, then I was thinking of the Horn to Morocco, including the Sahara. Given the human uniformity in genetics and language over both the EMH and early Berber periods throughout that area, I don't think it makes a lot of difference if we ever know exactly where the mutation occurred. What we do know is that there was a lot of movement over a lot of time. There were populations moving into Europe and Asia and then coming back. The Sami reached the Arctic Circle, and they are also E1b1b.

[Meyle]

You were being too specific when it came to the exact origin of the haplogroup and as you say now, there were alot of movements over a long period of time, however the earliest subclades of the E-haplogroup are rare outside the Horn of Africa, for instance the E-M35 that most Somalis belong to and that indicates that the Horn of Africa is the origin of this haplogroup. It's not just a matter of concentration.

[LiquidHYDROGEN]

Meyle,

You did check out the map of E1b1b? Did you notice that the population ran from Somalia to Morocco, and that the concentration in Morocco is only 5% less than it is in Somalia? The chief source of information for this group is from around the Tassili plateau in the central Sahara. When the sahara dried up, they migrated to the periphery. The chart to the left of the map shows an origin for E1b1b in the Horn, but this seems to be based on concentration rather than actual knowledge and could be time limited. The Tassili sequences are continuous for thousands of years. There are difficulties in dating the rock art, but Laas Geel could be related.

In any event, what you see as an argument I see as just a matter of definition. Much of the literature still limits "Berbers" to that part of North Africa west of Egypt, which we know is false from recent DNA analysis. If I was referring specifically to E1b1b, and not the Cro-magnon mutation (which I understand from research just this morning has been replaced with "Early Modern Human", or EMH), and I said North Africa, then I was thinking of the Horn to Morocco, including the Sahara. Given the human uniformity in genetics and language over both the EMH and early Berber periods throughout that area, I don't think it makes a lot of difference if we ever know exactly where the mutation occurred. What we do know is that there was a lot of movement over a lot of time. There were populations moving into Europe and Asia and then coming back. The Sami reached the Arctic Circle, and they are also E1b1b.

nin cad baad tariikhdiina weydisaneysaan.

[Grant]

Meyle,

You said before that I said E1b1b was from North Africa and you offer the Horn as an alternative, whereas I include the Horn in the former. Other than Tassili, this is the only article I can think of that had a specific location: http://www.temehu.com/wan-muhuggiag.htm, and it fits into the general Berber mutation history. Somalia may indeed be the land of the gods, but the Egyptian gods are definitely at Tassili and were there for Millenia, but they do not appear at Laas Geel, or as far as I am aware, at any place else in the Horn. The subclades may prove what you say, but they also could have arrived with Somalis and others as part of a migration out of the Sahara. Maybe the population in the Eastern Sahara was older than that in the West? Maybe the Horn really is the oldest and didn't move? I submit that we are both guessing at this point.

Here's more from the Tehemu link: http://www.temehu.com/History-of-Libya.htm

"Libya and the whole North African littoral was originally inhabited by an indigenous group of Berber tribes whose linguistic unity proves an ethnic sub-stratum of autochthons single race had existed in North Africa from the Mediterranean to the Sudan and from the Atlantic Ocean to the Red Sea; occupying nearly half of Africa and comprising massive Libya and Algeria, as well as the Sahara herself, Egypt, Tunisia, Morocco, Mauritania, Niger, Mali, Burkina Faso and the conquered Canary Islands themselves.

This linguistic unity of such diverse world is part of much larger phylum which includes Ancient Egyptian, Chadic, Ethiopian, Omotic and most recently Semitic, in what is originally known as Hamito-Semitic but now renamed Afro-Asiatic or Afrasiatic. They have built countless civilisations including the first ones; and ever since shall remain the proud Berbers of an empire without borders - the borders imposed by outsiders together with brutal history.

The Berbers are often excluded from Libya's history, except perhaps when they come in contact with conflict and the various conquests their countries came to consume. Even the late Ancient Egyptians made a habit of mentioning Libyans or Berbers more to do with wars than anything else, such as the invasions of King Shishenq --- just as the upsurge in Berber "politics" today is there because of the February War - albeit the debate is buried in Facebook.

Libya’s rich archaeological heritage was first noticed by the outside world during the Italian occupation wars, where preliminary excavations produced some outstanding results. But although the Second War quickly brought an end to this period of excavation, steps were taken afterwards by the Libyan government in association with the British administration to build the "Antiquities Department". However, Libya's archaeological heritage was left neglected and even vandalised, and many of its treasures and remains remained scattered across the Sahara, in millions; looted by visitors, diplomats, tomb raiders and antiquity traders, and reburied by sand for future humans to rediscover.

Full scientific and archaeological survey of Libya will take decades if not centuries to complete; and therefore proper history of Libya was never written, remains to be written, and must include the recent genetic evidence regarding the origin of the ancient Libyans; proving the continuous existence of the Berbers (or their ancestors) in North Africa for the last 50,000 years. McBurney's archaeological discoveries have previously extended this continuous existence of Libyans to 100,000 years - one line of living entities in one single cave - Haua Fteah Cave - one of the largest caves in the visible world. Finally, scientists have finally confirmed that all modern humans descended from primal Africa, and in particular from one single mother they named "African Eve", who lived in Africa 100,000 years ago."

[Grant]

Meyle,

You did check out the map of E1b1b? Did you notice that the population ran from Somalia to Morocco, and that the concentration in Morocco is only 5% less than it is in Somalia? The chief source of information for this group is from around the Tassili plateau in the central Sahara. When the sahara dried up, they migrated to the periphery. The chart to the left of the map shows an origin for E1b1b in the Horn, but this seems to be based on concentration rather than actual knowledge and could be time limited. The Tassili sequences are continuous for thousands of years. There are difficulties in dating the rock art, but Laas Geel could be related.

In any event, what you see as an argument I see as just a matter of definition. Much of the literature still limits "Berbers" to that part of North Africa west of Egypt, which we know is false from recent DNA analysis. If I was referring specifically to E1b1b, and not the Cro-magnon mutation (which I understand from research just this morning has been replaced with "Early Modern Human", or EMH), and I said North Africa, then I was thinking of the Horn to Morocco, including the Sahara. Given the human uniformity in genetics and language over both the EMH and early Berber periods throughout that area, I don't think it makes a lot of difference if we ever know exactly where the mutation occurred. What we do know is that there was a lot of movement over a lot of time. There were populations moving into Europe and Asia and then coming back. The Sami reached the Arctic Circle, and they are also E1b1b.

nin cad baad tariikhdiina weydisaneysaan.

OK. It's not in the male line. I remembered that part wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population ... f_the_Sami

Alessandro Achilli and colleagues noted that the Sami and the Berbers share U5b1b, which they estimated at 9,000 years old, and argued that this provides evidence for a radiation of the haplogroup from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe.[6]

[Meyle]

I have to disagree, its not just the earliest subclade thats associated with the Horn of Africa indicating that the Haplogroup itself originated there but Afro-Asiatic languages are associated with this haplogroup aswell as mentioned in the article you posted, however even the earlist Afro-Asiatic speakers are believed to have moved out of the Horn of Africa/north east Africa during the upper Paleolithic, even the Egyptian Gods that you mention are based on local dieties that these communities brought from the HOA/north east Africa to upper Egypt and it was these communities that laid the foundation of what would become the pre dynastic period, the early dynastic period and even the old Kingdom (the first voyage or pilgrimage to their ancestral homeland and the land of Gods took place during this time period)

The origins of Egyptian ethnicity lay in the areas south of Egypt. The ancient Egyptian language belonged to the Afrasian family (also called Afroasiatic or, formerly, Hamito-Semitic). The speakers of the earliest Afrasian languages, according to recent studies, were a set of people whose lands between 15,000 and 13,000 B.C. stretched from Nubia in the west to far northern Somalia in the east. They supported themselves by gathering wild grains. The first elements of Egyptian culture were laid down two thousand years later, between 12,000 and 10,000 B.C., when some of these Afrasian communities expanded northward into Egypt, bringing with them a language directly ancestral to ancient Egyptian. They also introduced to Egypt the idea of using wild grains as food.

A new religion came with them as well. Its central tenet explains the often localized origins of later Egyptian gods: the earliest Afrasians were, properly speaking, neither monotheistic nor polytheistic. Instead, each local community, comprising a clan or a group of related clans, had its own distinct deity and centered its religious observances on that deity.


Christopher Ehret
Professor of History, University of California at Los Angeles

[Grant]

Interesting.

I have trouble with the trip to the land of the gods because we have exactly nothing indicating their presence in the Horn. And this group to the south is not something I have hit before. Keep in mind that the Berbers are much older than the Egyptians. This second group must have followed the unitary Berber culture already noted in the sources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_mythology

"Egyptian-Berber beliefs

The Ancient Egyptians were the neighbors of the Berbers. Therefore, it is sometimes supposed that some deities were originally worshiped by the Ancient Egyptians, and the Ancient Libyans (Berbers) as well. The Egyptian-Berber deities can be distinguished according to their origin.

Egyptian deities

The Eastern ancient Berbers worshipped Isis and Set. That was reported by Herodotus when saying:

Cow's flesh, however, none of these tribes (Libyan, and Massyle Tribes) ever taste, but abstain from it for the same reason as the Egyptians, neither do they any of them breed swine. Even at Cyrene, the women think it wrong to eat the flesh of the cow, honoring in this Isis, the Egyptian goddess, whom they worship both with fasts and festivals. The Barcaean women abstain, not from cow's flesh only, but also from the flesh of swine.[17]

Those Berbers supposedly did not eat the swine's flesh, because it was associated with Set, while they did not eat the cow's flesh, because it was associated with Isis.[18]

Osiris was among the Egyptian deities who were venerated in Libya. However, Dr. Budge (in addition to a few other scholars) believed that Osiris was originally a Libyan god saying of him that "Everything which the texts of all periods recorded concerning him goes to show that he was an indigenous god of North-east Africa, and that his home and origin were possibly Libyan."[19]
Berber deities

The Egyptians considered some Egyptian deities to have had a Libyan origin, such as Neith who has been considered, by Egyptians, to have emigrated from Libya to establish her temple at Sais in the Nile Delta. Some legends tell that Neith was born around Lake Tritons (in modern Tunisia).

It is also notable that some Egyptian deities were depicted with Berber (ancient Libyan) characters, such as "Ament" who was depicted with two feathers which were the normal ornaments of the Ancient Libyans as they were depicted by the Ancient Egyptians.

Amun as a common deity

The most remarkable common god of the Berbers and the Egyptians was Amun. This god is hard to attribute to only one pantheon. Although most modern sources ignore the existence of Amun in Berber mythology, he was maybe the greatest ancient Berber god.[20] He was honored by the Ancient Greeks in Cyrenaica, and was united with the Phoenician god Baal due to Libyan influence.[21] Some depictions of the ram across North Africa belong to the lythic period which is situated between 9600 BC and 7500 BC.
The Massyle's also worrishiped Ba'al Amon, the Chaoui tribe was named after the horn of Ba'al. Queen Daya of Aures was said to pray to her god of war, and carry its bull head with her into battle against the Arabs, as told by the Romans. The most famous temple of Amun in Ancient Libya was the temple at the oasis of Siwa. The name of the ancient Berber tribes: Garamantes and Nasamonians are believed by some scholars to be related to the name Amon.[22]"

Can you think of any such traditions in the Horn? How about temples or even sigils carved on rocks? You will notice in this article that Hatshepsut's trip was to "God's land", not "the land of the gods."

http://ocean.tamu.edu/Quarterdeck/QD3.1 ... epsut.html

[Meyle]

The problem is, proper excavations have not taken place in the Horn of Africa, let alone Somaliland/Somalia. During the early seventies archeologists from Britain and the Sovietunion found artifacts in the north eastern part of the Somali democratic republic (modern day Puntland) aswell as the northern parts (modern day Somaliland). The artifacts were mostly pottery, gold and weapons from Ancient Egypt, indicating their presence in the area, not to mention that the region was also the centre of frankincense and myrrh trade, so the question is, if proper excavations are done, what history will the earth unfold.

Laas Geel is not actually the oldest, there are other rock paintings in Somaliland, some estimated to be older than 10 000 years.

3 years ago Dr. Sada Mire found new rock paintings in Somaliland and one of the paintings were depicting a man on horseback. This is 5000-6000 years ago, at a time when the horse was not domesticated.

Horses didnt even exist in Africa during that time period.





Ba'al or Baal sounds interesting, that diety is mentioned in the Qur'aan and I think there's an equivalent within our terminology, at least in the context of Somali traditions, poetry and songs..

[Grant]

It's really difficult to date rock art. You do have to have the archaeology to go with it. How did Dr. Mire date the site?

There was a little hill between Dhuusamareeb and Eyl I would like to have put a shovel in. It had desert-varnished spalls just spilling out of it.

[James Dahl]

The problem is, proper excavations have not taken place in the Horn of Africa, let alone Somaliland/Somalia. During the early seventies archeologists from Britain and the Sovietunion found artifacts in the north eastern part of the Somali democratic republic (modern day Puntland) aswell as the northern parts (modern day Somaliland). The artifacts were mostly pottery, gold and weapons from Ancient Egypt, indicating their presence in the area, not to mention that the region was also the centre of frankincense and myrrh trade, so the question is, if proper excavations are done, what history will the earth unfold.

Laas Geel is not actually the oldest, there are other rock paintings in Somaliland, some estimated to be older than 10 000 years.

3 years ago Dr. Sada Mire found new rock paintings in Somaliland and one of the paintings were depicting a man on horseback. This is 5000-6000 years ago, at a time when the horse was not domesticated.

Horses didnt even exist in Africa during that time period.





Ba'al or Baal sounds interesting, that diety is mentioned in the Qur'aan and I think there's an equivalent within our terminology, at least in the context of Somali traditions, poetry and songs..

I think I know of one expedition to Ras Xafuun that found Roman pottery, Chinese pottery, Indian pottery and several other pottery varieties unknown to those American archaeologists (probably native pottery and pottery from further south).

Ba'al is one of the old Arab gods from before Islam, him and his wife Astarte are the two chief dieties of the old Arab pantheon, his name means 'Lord'. The Greeks identified him with Cronus, who the Romans called Saturn. He is roughly equivalent to the Egyptian god Osiris, and Astarte is the Egyptian goddess Isis.

[Meyle]

It's really difficult to date rock art. You do have to have the archaeology to go with it. How did Dr. Mire date the site?

There was a little hill between Dhuusamareeb and Eyl I would like to have put a shovel in. It had desert-varnished spalls just spilling out of it.

I have no idea but she's an archeologist.


I read in the newspaper a year ago about her discoveries in Somaliland.