Where is our history?

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Eaglehawk
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Re: Where is our history?

Post by Eaglehawk »

Saraxnow wrote:^Re-read my post.

Most Muslim, especially Arab countries have hybrids of Communism and some form of democracy. You do realise that democracy in the modern political sense,did originate in Greece? Ta labaad, afkaaga hagajiso markaad hadlaysid.
what would your ideal islamcic system be, and remember a state is not a indivuel muslim it can not pray, go to hajj and pay charity so what is western and what is islamic
I don`t believe there is a thing called "islamic republic" or a western system and in terms of ethnicity a somali system or a english system, back to you billy
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Re: Where is our history?

Post by Saraxnow »

It isn't a completed picture in mind,but my ideal Islamic model would be one that reflects the Islamic world-view, it isn't secular in nature nor is it entirely 'religious' as many see it, in the sense that it is not only spiritual neglecting the material world. It will strive to maximize these values and must reflect that country's language, history,social values etc, to work it has to address that cultures' own needs.Western models do not reflect these values and there is this belief by regular people in many Muslim countries that modernization =Westernization. Unlike the Western models for example, economic incentives and gains is not the sole motivation,it should be ''technology is for man,man is not for technology'', importance will be given to the spiritual, so for instance in every public admin there should be breaks for Salah so it meets the spiritual aspect as said.Instead of adopting foreign models, there should be only exchange of ideas, information,tools not wholesale 'flooding of the market', so to speak. This ideal Islamic state will provide the security,prosperity and foremost comes justice,representation for all of those under its responsibility and freedom for subjects is always accompanied by responsibility.There must be division between the judicial and powers of the head of state. There will be a council of Shura and the ruler's actions will be watched over by the populace,if he goes against the laws they have a right to impeach him. Also, he himself must have specific characteristics.There's a lot in this, I would never finish.
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Re: Where is our history?

Post by Alphanumeric »

Saraxnow wrote:It isn't a completed picture in mind,but my ideal Islamic model would be one that reflects the Islamic world-view, it isn't secular in nature nor is it entirely 'religious' as many see it, in the sense that it is not only spiritual neglecting the material world. It will strive to maximize these values and must reflect that country's language, history,social values etc, to work it has to address that cultures' own needs.Western models do not reflect these values and there is this belief by regular people in many Muslim countries that modernization =Westernization. Unlike the Western models for example, economic incentives and gains is not the sole motivation,it should be ''technology is for man,man is not for technology'', importance will be given to the spiritual, so for instance in every public admin there should be breaks for Salah so it meets the spiritual aspect as said.Instead of adopting foreign models, there should be only exchange of ideas, information,tools not wholesale 'flooding of the market', so to speak. This ideal Islamic state will provide the security,prosperity and foremost comes justice,representation for all of those under its responsibility and freedom for subjects is always accompanied by responsibility.There must be division between the judicial and powers of the head of state. There will be a council of Shura and the ruler's actions will be watched over by the populace,if he goes against the laws they have a right to impeach him. Also, he himself must have specific characteristics.There's a lot in this, I would never finish.
I'm curious what it is you're trying to describe, though I don't think you've actually described anything concrete. You've also contradicted yourself within the post and with your previous comment; self-imposition of Eastern and Western methods or simply a hybrid of both.
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Re: Where is our history?

Post by Saraxnow »

I did say it isn't a complete picture. I am trying to create a clearer image of what a unique model should be :lol: Btw, could you show me the contradiction?.
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Re: Where is our history?

Post by Alphanumeric »

Saraxnow wrote:I did say it isn't a complete picture. I am trying to create a clearer image of what a unique model should be :lol: Btw, could you show me the contradiction?.
For one, a subject is never free. "Freedom" cannot be used in the context of statehood.
must reflect that country's language, history,social values etc, to work it has to address that cultures' own needs. // representation for all of those under its responsibility
Countries are often conglomerations of various cultures. A nation state seeks to rid friction between conflicting cultures for the goal of prosperity. You cannot represent a culture which conflicts with another without infringing on the rights of those who do not adhere to it. Conflicting social values, various languages, and differing views of history aside.
Instead of adopting foreign models // if he goes against the laws they have a right to impeach him.
Impeachment is a "foreign" political tactic. It also implies a democratic element. And as we know, democracy is the heart of "Western" politics.
There will be a council of Shura and the ruler's actions will be watched over by the populace,if he goes against the laws they have a right to impeach him.
What happens when the populace wants the leader impeached, but the Shura council overrides?
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Re: Where is our history?

Post by eliteSomali »

The best form of governance is dictatorship and when it comes to the somalis, the need for that is keener. Somalis are by nature violent and very stubborn people. Democracy and shyt like that will not work on them. They're not white people whom do exactly as they're told. What you need is a dictator that rules by force and fear. A dictator who will destroy whoever opposes him.
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Re: Where is our history?

Post by Alphanumeric »

eliteSomali wrote:The best form of governance is dictatorship and when it comes to the somalis, the need for that is keener. Somalis are by nature violent and very stubborn people. Democracy and shyt like that will not work on them. They're not white people whom do exactly as they're told. What you need is a dictator that rules by force and fear. A dictator who will destroy whoever opposes him.
:lol:

I believe you and I have been over this, eh?
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Re: Where is our history?

Post by eliteSomali »

:lol: Alpha: i believe we did but wallahi had it been upto me, I'd be a harsh dictator. Whoever goes against my word would be dead until everyone living is loyal to me.
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Re: Where is our history?

Post by Alphanumeric »

Dictators always fall. They do not make a nation.
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Re: Where is our history?

Post by eliteSomali »

I'd imitate those who've excelled the most(i.e Fidel castro). :lol:
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Re: Where is our history?

Post by Saraxnow »

Alpha, Freedom is of degrees. There is in one extreme complete absence of freedom, in the case of slavery where there is no choices or options available and then there is the opposite extreme.If we want to go philosophic then we can also argue, is there such a thing as freedom and free will?
Countries are often conglomerations of various cultures. A nation state seeks to rid friction between conflicting cultures for the goal of prosperity. You cannot represent a culture which conflicts with another without infringing on the rights of those who do not adhere to it. Conflicting social values, various languages, and differing views of history aside.
I agree,there will often be an ethnic majority and a minority,but I'm not referring to nation-states that are usually based on ethnic conformity,ideally it should transcend such boundaries and be based on ideology.But why can't you have a system that is multi-cultural as long as they do not go against basic laws? This tricky.What's your take?Don't say anarchism.
Impeachment is a "foreign" political tactic. It also implies a democratic element. And as we know, democracy is the heart of "Western" politics.
I did say ,''there should be only exchange of ideas, information,tools not wholesale 'flooding of the market', so to speak''. Also I remember telling someone that ''democracy'' in the Islamic context, where some traits of it already exist, meaning the shura process and electing a leader as in the case of the first Caliphs, as opposed to a monarchy or a democratic or autocratic form of government.
What happens when the populace wants the leader impeached, but the Shura council overrides?
The Shura council is part of the population itself and it being the advisory council guiding the state,its decision should come first.

Btw, nice questions. Very thought provoking.
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Re: Where is our history?

Post by Alphanumeric »

Saraxnow wrote:Alpha, Freedom is of degrees. There is in one extreme complete absence of freedom, in the case of slavery where there is no choices or options available and then there is the opposite extreme.If we want to go philosophic then we can also argue, is there such a thing as freedom and free will?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :up:

We're not talking about the unseen governance of the Universe here, we're talking about the bureaucratic and armed system of statehood. When it comes to human interactions, freedom is of only one degree.
I agree,there will often be an ethnic majority and a minority,but I'm not referring to nation-states that are usually based on ethnic conformity,ideally it should transcend such boundaries and be based on ideology.But why can't you have a system that is multi-cultural as long as they do not go against basic laws? This tricky.What's your take?Don't say anarchism


Islam transcends ethnicity and language, but that has never stopped Muslims from waging war on one another. In fact, there are some examples where people who share language, culture, societal values, and even religion have still waged war on one another. Ideology cannot guarantee peace. Democracy is a multicultural system. When you remove the "should" and enforced cultural expectations, diversity becomes easily manageable.

My take? I have none. Even my idealized Switzerland advocates for a uniformed culture. A re-imagined Swiss model perhaps, that accounts for cultural diversity would work. It would be by region. For instance, French is taught throughout Canada, but I would prefer it be taught only as a second language in Quebec, and legal documents printed in French along with English found only in that province. English would be Canada's first and only language, but provinces would have legal right to assign their own second languages. Theoretically speaking, it would be at a cost to their respective populations.

Now with the case of a cultural group found mainly within a particular region (RE: Quebec), secession may become an issue. The legal right to secede would be determined by the courts, who follow an agreed constitution. But theoretically speaking, in a canton-like construction as Switzerland, secession wouldn't be a problem. Regions would have the right to govern themselves as they see fit, for the most part. With a few tweaks here and there toward a Libertarian perspective, it should work pretty fine.
I did say ,''there should be only exchange of ideas, information,tools not wholesale 'flooding of the market', so to speak''. Also I remember telling someone that ''democracy'' in the Islamic context, where some traits of it already exist, meaning the shura process and electing a leader as in the case of the first Caliphs, as opposed to a monarchy or a democratic or autocratic form of government.
The Shura process is not democracy. Impeachment is a valid point to argue for, but it requires an entirely democratic government, free from coercion and manipulation. This is impossible in the Islamic context. Islam advocates for a singular and unilateral rule.

You are attempting to mix and match between differing forms of government. It will not work.
The Shura council is part of the population itself and it being the advisory council guiding the state,its decision should come first.
Unless the Shura council itself is democratically elected, it is not part of the population. If it is part of the population, suggesting an entirely democratic scheme, no decision overrides the people, unless the people advocate for something constitutionally illegal. If so, the courts would need to address the situation and if necessary suggest a referendum and possible constitutional addendum.
Btw, nice questions. Very thought provoking.
:)
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Re: Where is our history?

Post by Alphanumeric »

Alphanumeric wrote: English would be Canada's first and only language, but provinces would have legal right to assign their own second languages. Theoretically speaking, it would be at a cost to their respective populations.
I said this thinking the language would be first, not second. A second language wouldn't be a cost, but gain. However, forcing a second language on a population is what I was advocating against.
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Re: Where is our history?

Post by gurey25 »

Saraxnow wrote:It isn't a completed picture in mind,but my ideal Islamic model would be one that reflects the Islamic world-view, it isn't secular in nature nor is it entirely 'religious' as many see it, in the sense that it is not only spiritual neglecting the material world. It will strive to maximize these values and must reflect that country's language, history,social values etc, to work it has to address that cultures' own needs.Western models do not reflect these values and there is this belief by regular people in many Muslim countries that modernization =Westernization. Unlike the Western models for example, economic incentives and gains is not the sole motivation,it should be ''technology is for man,man is not for technology'', importance will be given to the spiritual, so for instance in every public admin there should be breaks for Salah so it meets the spiritual aspect as said.Instead of adopting foreign models, there should be only exchange of ideas, information,tools not wholesale 'flooding of the market', so to speak. This ideal Islamic state will provide the security,prosperity and foremost comes justice,representation for all of those under its responsibility and freedom for subjects is always accompanied by responsibility.There must be division between the judicial and powers of the head of state. There will be a council of Shura and the ruler's actions will be watched over by the populace,if he goes against the laws they have a right to impeach him. Also, he himself must have specific characteristics.There's a lot in this, I would never finish.

You should not completely ignore the Wests achievements because they do have allot to teach us.
Our shareeca gives us a big leeway that enables us to adapt to different circumstances,
our problem is that we have no choice when it comes to choosing how we govern ourselves, we are given the choice of either the wests way or the highway.
This leads to the reaction that alshabab and alqaida and other groups have, blind resistance as almost an automatic animalistic reaction with no direction.
Or like allot of people we ahve here that completly embrace the west and ape it in the same blind way the other oppose it.

We need the confidence and strength to take a good look at ourselves and our environment and find the best solutions.
the khulafa of our golden age started off as barley literate unsophisticated nomads but they were conquerers their minds were free, islam gave them the confidence and the strength.
They were not frightened of foreign methods of administration, sciences or knowledge they took what they found useful and discarded the rest.


Do you see our situation the rest of the muslim way is more or less on the same path as us, none of them are truly free,
we need to be free before we can fix oursleves.
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Re: Where is our history?

Post by daiman »

So the question of the thread still remains to be answered 'where is our history'?
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