Islam, Original Sin, and Predestination

[Keyblade]

@Black,could you be more respectful with your choice of words regarding the Prophet and Allah?. The scientific method was first developed by Muslim scholars. How does accepting one or some theories (like the pathogenic theory of disease) and rejecting others make one a hypocrite?.You reject some because you think they're wrong, not because you think they're right and deliberately ignore them.

Ever heard of God does what He wills?.The Big bang theory actually supports that this world was created by God,an ever expanding universe as well.

Even though I disagree with him, why should he show respect when his beliefs aren't respected on here?

[eliteSomali]

Yalaxoow: what's that white nigger saying? I don't speak Swedish sxb.

the pink pig skinn coloured albino nigger is explaining that how everything started from the Big bang

Thanks for clearing that up for me sxb. Now tell me, how do you reconcile the idea that the world was brought to existence by some random explosion called the big bang theory and the idea taught in the quran that allah built the world and the heavens in 7days?

[Colonel]

@Black,could you be more respectful with your choice of words regarding the Prophet and Allah?. The scientific method was first developed by Muslim scholars. How does accepting one or some theories (like the pathogenic theory of disease) and rejecting others make one a hypocrite?.You reject some because you think they're wrong, not because you think they're right and deliberately ignore them.

Ever heard of God does what He wills?.The Big bang theory actually supports that this world was created by God,an ever expanding universe as well.

Even though I disagree with him, why should he show respect when his beliefs aren't respected on here?

It's called giving him some of his own medecin. The guy constantly insults our beliefs, we're merely counter attacking

[DR-YALAXOOW]

elite somali!!

where in the quran says we created universe in 7 days?? the universe is much more than only the world and the heavens !! Look iam muslim secular i use islam only to fulfill my spiritual needs. Scientce has nothing to do whit religion..
Religion is religion and science is a science..... we should separate those two!!!

[Keyblade]

Let's be honest, all the dude had to say was he was an atheist and he would get attacked. It doesn't help that he's a prick about it though.

[X.Playa]

Yalaxoow: what's that white nigger saying? I don't speak Swedish sxb.

the pink pig skinn coloured albino nigger is explaining that how everything started from the Big bang

Thanks for clearing that up for me sxb. Now tell me, how do you reconcile the idea that the world was brought to existence by some random explosion called the big bang theory and the idea taught in the quran that allah built the world and the heavens in 7days?

Easy, don't take a shower for a month and look at the life forms (lice) thats forms on your head, thats creation for you.

[eliteSomali]

where in the quran says we created universe in 7 days?? the universe is much more than only the world and the heavens !! Look iam muslim secular i use islam only to fulfill my spiritual needs. Scientce has nothing to do whit religion..
Religion is religion and science is a science..... we should separate those two!!!

I agree that science and religion are relegated to two diff realms N i concur it should be kept that way. But regarding the two ideas, they very much differ. Do you believe in both or do you hold that one supersedes the other N if so, which?

[DR-YALAXOOW]

My lawyer elitesomali

i believe science because often it based on evidence while religion is often based on Faith. i believe also We humans need religion because we are spritual beings!! But if we only put religion before everything else then probably we still would have sheikhs prescribing Urine camel as medicine for TBC(tiibisho) instead of Antibiotica. marka waxay ila tahay Science made our lives better!! thanks to science we are talking to eachother right now. marka i also believe We need Religion and God because we need something to comfort us which very important!!! Allahuuu akbaaaaaar!!

[AmalJaber]

Thanks for answering. My second question is how do you believe creation took place as a Christian?

Christians believe that the the world was formed through the word of God. In defining what faith is, the Bible tells us in the Book of Hebrews 11:1-3

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained approval. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

This is an explanation of the Bible passage in the 1st Book of the Bible (genesis chapter 1)

Beginning of Creation
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

First Day
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Second Day
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Third Day
And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let the earth bring forth vegetation, the plants yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after its kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. And the earth brought forth vegetation, and plants yielding seed after their kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after its kind: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the third day.

Fourth Day
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Fifth Day
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that has life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. And God created great sea creatures, and every living thing that moves, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after its kind: and God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

Sixth Day
And God said, Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kinds, cattle, and creeping things, and beasts of the earth after their kinds: and it was so And God made the beasts of the earth after their kinds, and cattle after their kinds, and every thing that creeps upon the earth after its kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moves upon the earth. And God said, Behold, I have given you every plant bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, which has seed in its fruit; to you it shall be for food. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to everything that creeps upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green plant for food: and it was so. And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

There are certain things to note:

1. The Bible does not try to explain or provide evidence for the existence of God. Because according to a verse i placed here b4:

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has showed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and deity; so that they are without excuse:

2. God created the Light before he created the Sun

3. The day starts in the Evening (sunset), and ends in the evening of the following day. That's why the jewish sabath starts on Friday evening and not Saturday morning.

[BlackVelvet]

2. God created the Light before he created the Sun

3. The day starts in the Evening (sunset), and ends in the evening of the following day.

I never thought of it like that, finally I can make sense of why Somalis count the night of one day as the beginning of the other day (without waiting for sunrise), if you're Somali the saying "hawenka jimcada soo galeyso" for example

So back to our conversation, according to the passage you posted God created all the animals and at the very end God created Adam and Eve both at the same time and in his image. Very beautiful and clear passage.

What would you say to a Muslim who tries to convince you that Eve was created from the crooked rib of Adam or that the animals were created after Adam and he was asked to name them?

[AmalJaber]

2. God created the Light before he created the Sun

3. The day starts in the Evening (sunset), and ends in the evening of the following day.

I never thought of it like that, finally I can make sense of why Somalis count the night of one day as the beginning of the other day (without waiting for sunrise), if you're Somali the saying "hawenka jimcada soo galeyso" for example

So back to our conversation, according to the passage you posted God created all the animals and at the very end God created Adam and Eve both at the same time and in his image. Very beautiful and clear passage.

What would you say to a Muslim who tries to convince you that Eve was created from the crooked rib of Adam or that the animals were created after Adam and he was asked to name them?

About the creation of Eve you need to realize that the above chapter and section that talks about the sixth day is a summary of Chapter 2 which goes into the creation in detail. But basically, the events in the Bible are pretty similar to those of Islam - including the naming of Animals. The only difference being, in Islam it God who told Adam the names, while in the Bible, it is Adam who gives those animals the names:

And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was its name.

And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him. And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up its place with flesh; And from the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

The verse below was what was used by Jesus to teach against divorce:

And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Here is Jesus Quoting the scriptures:

And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these sayings, he departed from Galilee, and came into the region of Judea beyond Jordan; And great multitudes followed him; and he healed them there.

The Pharisees also came unto him, testing him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? And he answered and said unto them, Have you not read, that he who made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they two shall be one flesh?

Therefore they are no more two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder.
They said unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
He said unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts allowed you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, commits adultery: and whoever marries her who is put away does commit adultery.

[BlackVelvet]

So then what do you believe was created first? The animals or Adam?

[AmalJaber]

So then what do you believe was created first? The animals or Adam?

The Animals were created 1st; Genesis 1 is a Chronological event, while Genesis 2 is not. many Bible readers/scholars tend to get confused (and some Christians try to brush it off, but i don't). As you can see, chapter 2 ends with:

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

As you can see, there is no relationship between vs 24 and 25. The fact that "And" comes after "shall be one flesh" doesn't mean that they became naked after the events of vs 24. It just means that "they were both naked" is in a list of events that occurred during the generations of the creation of heavens and earth.

[BlackVelvet]

18 Yahweh God said, 'It is not right that the man should be alone. I shall make him a helper.'
19 So from the soil Yahweh God fashioned all the wild animals and all the birds of heaven. These he brought to the man to see what he would call them; each one was to bear the name the man would give it.
20 The man gave names to all the cattle, all the birds of heaven and all the wild animals. But no helper suitable for the man was found for him.
21 Then, Yahweh God made the man fall into a deep sleep. And, while he was asleep, he took one of his ribs and closed the flesh up again forthwith.
22 Yahweh God fashioned the rib he had taken from the man into a woman, and brought her to the man.

This is not chronological?

[AmalJaber]

18 Yahweh God said, 'It is not right that the man should be alone. I shall make him a helper.'
19 So from the soil Yahweh God fashioned all the wild animals and all the birds of heaven. These he brought to the man to see what he would call them; each one was to bear the name the man would give it.
20 The man gave names to all the cattle, all the birds of heaven and all the wild animals. But no helper suitable for the man was found for him.
21 Then, Yahweh God made the man fall into a deep sleep. And, while he was asleep, he took one of his ribs and closed the flesh up again forthwith.
22 Yahweh God fashioned the rib he had taken from the man into a woman, and brought her to the man.

This is not chronological?

These events are not chronological; not if you take your time to read the passage: Iknow where you are coming from - the two creation accounts. But i honestly don't see anything unless you want to see a contradiction. Now check out the words in bold.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from there it was parted, and became four heads.
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which encompasses the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that encompasses the whole land of Cush.
14 And the name of the third river is Tigris: that is it which goes toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to work it and to keep it.

Just like the book of John, this passage doesn't focus on when things were done, but what was done