Somali Historians come in including you James Dahl

[Meyle]

The problem is, proper excavations have not taken place in the Horn of Africa, let alone Somaliland/Somalia. During the early seventies archeologists from Britain and the Sovietunion found artifacts in the north eastern part of the Somali democratic republic (modern day Puntland) aswell as the northern parts (modern day Somaliland). The artifacts were mostly pottery, gold and weapons from Ancient Egypt, indicating their presence in the area, not to mention that the region was also the centre of frankincense and myrrh trade, so the question is, if proper excavations are done, what history will the earth unfold.

Laas Geel is not actually the oldest, there are other rock paintings in Somaliland, some estimated to be older than 10 000 years.

3 years ago Dr. Sada Mire found new rock paintings in Somaliland and one of the paintings were depicting a man on horseback. This is 5000-6000 years ago, at a time when the horse was not domesticated.

Horses didnt even exist in Africa during that time period.





Ba'al or Baal sounds interesting, that diety is mentioned in the Qur'aan and I think there's an equivalent within our terminology, at least in the context of Somali traditions, poetry and songs..

I think I know of one expedition to Ras Xafuun that found Roman pottery, Chinese pottery, Indian pottery and several other pottery varieties unknown to those American archaeologists (probably native pottery and pottery from further south).

Ba'al is one of the old Arab gods from before Islam, him and his wife Astarte are the two chief dieties of the old Arab pantheon, his name means 'Lord'. The Greeks identified him with Cronus, who the Romans called Saturn. He is roughly equivalent to the Egyptian god Osiris, and Astarte is the Egyptian goddess Isis.

So Baal was specifically an Arab God or was he a semitic God?

[James Dahl]

Arabs are semites too haha. Ba'al and those gods were worshipped from Babylon to Tyre and all throughout the Phoenician colonies like in southern Spain and Carthage.

[Bilis]

No one is talking about the different mutations within that haplogroup, we're discussing the haplogroup itself and no most Somalis carry the E-M35 followed by E-M78 (V32)

With respect, you're mixing things up sxb.

Haplogroups are similar to the clan system. You have your major haplogroup/clan, then a sub-clade/sub-clan of that, then a sub-lineage of that, etc. until you reach what's known as the Most Recent Common Ancestor (MRCA).

What I was trying to explain to you is that the Most Recent Common Ancestor of many Somalis is V32, not M35/M215. V32 is like Habar Jeclo whereas M35/M215 is Sheikh Isaaq himself.

And V32 is indeed believed to have originated in Egypt/Libya. This is because the most basal (oldest) examples of its immediate parent haplogroup M78 are found in North Africa and even parts of Europe, but not in the Horn.

Here is what the E1b1b phylogenetic tree looks like; notice the downstream position of Somalia under the V32 node, and what lineages/areas are immediately ancestral/upstream to it:

[Bilis]

Mire examined sites in various parts of northern Somalia, including Togdheer and Woqooyi Galbeed, as well as parts of Sool and Sanaag toward the northeast. As far as I know, she didn't investigate the other northern areas of Awdal, Bari, Nugal or Mudug, where the remainder of such sites are concentrated.

She did, though, mention an interesting thing in one of her papers on the Dhambalin site. Besides the early evidence for horse domestication, she remarked that the rock art tradition present there was in the characteristic "Ethiopian-Arabian" or "Arabian–Ethiopian" style. This particular style of rock art is found throughout Northeast Africa as well as the Arabian Peninsula, where it ultimately originated. The oldest "Ethiopian-Arabian" style cave paintings are, in fact, in Saudi Arabia:

http://books.google.com/books?id=3zOlYZ ... &q&f=false
http://www.mbali.info/doc494.htm

[LiquidHYDROGEN]

I have yet to see any proof for these mythical archaeological artifacts. No doubt Somalia is a veritable treasure trove of ancient history, but where are these supposed artifacts being stored and why aren't they being exhibited?

[Grant]

This is from Dr Mire's article:

"The paintings of bovines at Dhambalin seems to fit well in the descriptions of what is named the Ethiopian–Arabian style (erviek 1971), a style that has been lengthily discussed in other contexts of the Horn (erviek 1971, 1979; Graziosi 1964; Joussaume 1981; Brandt and Carder 1987). The rock art of the Ethiopian– Arabian style is dated cautiously to 5,000–3,000 years b.p. through comparison with Nubian C-Group pottery (erviek 1979). Some of the cattle paintings at Dhambalin perhaps relate to the early phase of what is known as Dathami style Proper due to lack of neck and/or heads. Furthermore, similarly many of the cattle also relate to the “long-horned” humpless cattle in the Sorre–Hamakiya style. In places, the paintings are superposed one above the other. The successive strata of paintings might make it difficult to pin down the earliest time of inhabitation of the site. However, the styles of painting might be of use since these can be compared with other sites in the country and beyond, in the Horn of Africa.

Rock art sites are spread across a belt stretching from Somalia’s east highlands to the Harar region in Ethiopia and further to the west in Ethiopia (Brandt and Carder 1987; Gutherz et al. 2003). Karin Heegan has polychrome paintings of bovine, and was first mentioned by Clark (1954, 1972) and visited by Jönsson (1983). However, it was studied first by Brandt and Brook, who excavated it (Brandt et al. 1984; Brandt and Carder 1987). The dates from charcoal samples of the middle levels date to c. 1,600 and 2,100 b.p. (Brandt et al. ibid.). It is however possible as also suggested by others (see Gutherz et al. 2003) that these dates might not correspond to the earliest human settlement of Karin Heegan and the rock art. The well known difficulty in dating rock art remains a problem also for the Horn of Africa.

The paintings of the Horn of Africa as that of Somali region such as the extraordinary paintings of Karin Heegan (Brandt and Carder, ibid. p. 199) and the recently visited site Laas Geel (Gutherz et al. 2003: 235) are, too, of the style that is known as Arabian–Ethiopian style. However, as also pointed out by Brandt (1986), there are chronological problems relating to the lithics which need updating and also to the fact that we are lacking ceramics at rock shelter sites in the Horn of Africa."

The stylistic dates for the Ethiopian/Arabian style are 5-3 thousand years. The charcoal dating of middle levels at similar sites in Ethiopia was 1,600-2,100. By comparison, the sites at Tassili are thought to be older than 12,000, although the same dating difficulties do apply.

[Meyle]

No one is talking about the different mutations within that haplogroup, we're discussing the haplogroup itself and no most Somalis carry the E-M35 followed by E-M78 (V32)

With respect, you're mixing things up sxb.

Haplogroups are similar to the clan system. You have your major haplogroup/clan, then a sub-clade/sub-clan of that, then a sub-lineage of that, etc. until you reach what's known as the Most Recent Common Ancestor (MRCA).

What I was trying to explain to you is that the Most Recent Common Ancestor of many Somalis is V32, not M35/M215. V32 is like Habar Jeclo whereas M35/M215 is Sheikh Isaaq himself.

And V32 is indeed believed to have originated in Egypt/Libya. This is because the most basal (oldest) examples of its immediate parent haplogroup M78 are found in North Africa and even parts of Europe, but not in the Horn.

Here is what the E1b1b phylogenetic tree looks like; notice the downstream position of Somalia under the V32 node, and what lineages/areas are immediately ancestral/upstream to it:

It's not that simple, in order to belong to a specific subclade there has to be a mutation within the ancestral haplogroup in this case E-M35. The mutation occurred within the population that left the Horn and not within the population that stayed behind, most of them being carriers of E-M35. It's not passed down, as you're putting it. The mutation took place in southern Egypt and when these groups returned the E-M78 was introduced. The V32 is just a mutation that took place in the Somali peninsula within the population that returned thus being specific to "Somalia" because it's rare outside that area but it doesn't mean that all Somalis carry this subclade (far from it) nor does it prove that our alleged origin would be in North Africa.

[Arabman]

So, the paintings were found to be of Ethiopian-Arabian style, not Somali?

[Meyle]

So, the paintings were found to be of Ethiopian-Arabian style, not Somali?

It's a category. Rock art is classified after certain characteristics.

[Bilis]

It's not that simple, in order to belong to a specific subclade there has to be a mutation within the ancestral haplogroup in this case E-M35. The mutation occurred within the population that left the Horn and not within the population that stayed behind, most of them being carriers of E-M35. It's not passed down, as you're putting it. The mutation took place in southern Egypt and when these groups returned the E-M78 was introduced. The V32 is just a mutation that took place in the Somali peninsula within the population that returned thus being specific to "Somalia" because it's rare outside that area but it doesn't mean that all Somalis carry this subclade (far from it) nor does it prove that our alleged origin would be in North Africa.

You're right, it's a bit more complex than that.

Every sub-clade of a haplogroup has what is known as a "defining mutation" or "defining polymorphism" (polymorphism=mutation). If a person doesn't have that defining mutation, he doesn't belong to that particular sub-clade since it's that mutation in the first place which establishes the sub-clade. That's how the haplogroup system works.

Take a look again at that phylogenetic tree above. See all of those numbers/letters above the various E1b1b sub-clades? Those are the defining mutations for each sub-clade/sub-haplogroup. As can be seen there, the defining mutation for the particular E1b1b sub-clade that is common in Somalia is V32. And V32 is indeed believed to have originated in the general Egypt/Libya area, from an upstream/ancestral E1b1b sub-clade defined by the V12 mutation.

[Bilis]

So, the paintings were found to be of Ethiopian-Arabian style, not Somali?

There is no rock art style called "Somali". The particular cave painting tradition found in northern Somalia is also found in other parts of Northeast Africa as well as in the Arabian peninsula. It's oldest examples have been found in Saudi Arabia, so that is where the style is believed to have originated.

This rock art style is known by various names, including the "Jubba Style" in northern Saudi Arabia, the "Dathamani Style" in the central part of the Arabian peninsula, and the "Ethiopian-Arabian Style" or "Karora Style" in the Horn region. All of these are different names for the same rock art tradition.

[gurey25]

facinating !!
does the Ethiopian arabian style proliferation add strenght to the argument that the entire horn area including sudan was along with the arabian peninsula a single contiguous cultural and racial region.

[Bilis]

facinating !!
does the Ethiopian arabian style proliferation add strenght to the argument that the entire horn area including sudan was along with the arabian peninsula a single contiguous cultural and racial region.

It certainly seems that way sxb... a sort of Afro-Asiatic continuum, if you will.

There's one really interesting archaeological site near Laasqooray and Elaayo called Karinhegane. It has some ancient rock art showing both existing and now extinct animals. The cave paintings were drawn in the same Ethiopian-Arabian tradition as the rock art at the Laas Gaal and Dhambalin sites to the west. However, the Karinhegane art is unique in that underneath each of its figures are some undeciphered inscriptions.

There are a number of other really interesting discoveries that were more recently made in Somalia. One of these finds is rock art at the Dhawaale site, which according to Mire depicts an ancient calendar (Somalis have ancient calendrical, meteorological, astrological and astronimical systems; Osman Yusuf Kenadid and Muse Haji Galaal wrote works on them). This is the only such cave painting on the whole continent:

[LiquidHYDROGEN]

I don't understand. If the same group of people occupied the arabian peninsula and NE Africa, why is their no genealogical or linguistic evidence. Did the arabs come much later? If so howcomethe balkan people have such a high degree of E3b compared to the peninsula arabs who are almost all J?

[gurey25]

There is genetic evidence tht clearly links the 2, and linguistics too.
They are still debating whether the semetic group of languages originated in the horn or north of the Sinai.
they already come under afroasiatic languages.