Muslim countries strategy in the war on Islam.

[Padishah]

When Oslo pretty much institutionalised the Israeli Occupation, Fatah ceased to be relevant.

[Somaliweyn]

These days alot of Somalis seem to be warm for the idea of an Islamic state in Somalia.

Ofcourse, there is nothing wrong with this ideal, since we are all muslims and want to live in a prospering, just, muslim society.

The problem however is that most muslims, and especially Somalis, seem to forget that an overnight transformation from a backward society into an enlightened, just, Islamic society is not something which can be pulled out of the hat within a short period of time.

Also, most people believe that the creation of an Islamic state is a panacea for Somali problems, not knowhing that a society has to achieve at least a certain level of development and enlightment (knowledge about the world and religion) before it can succesfully institute this kind of system.

So, I think we need to be patient, first get the basics under control, and rehabilitate our society from a long period of civil war with its devastating impact. In this process, religious groups can do their moral job, i.e educating the people about the religion and focus on the moral rejuvenation of the Somali society.



What are your thoughts?

[Nolol cusub]

"be patient, first get the basics under control, and rehabilitate our society from a long period of civil war with its devastating impact."


Securing the rear before going to the front.We will see how many defeats Somalia needs before it acquires the emotional and intellectual maturity of securing the rear?

Around this time last century you had Abdulle Hassan taking on the British without securing the rear. The British empire with extenstive colonial expereince were to Zigzag him with efficency. They went as far as obtaining a letter of denunciation from his own Shiekh in Medina.


Fastforward to Barre,

Many in Somalia remember Barre as the man who took Somalia to a costly war without first securing the rear that is strengthening and modernizing the Somalia he had seized. But few people acknowledge the economic and political significance of Barre's Socialism. Barre's Socialism had the impact of taking a critical 20 years off the development of a home grown capitalism. What would those twenty years have done in securing the base? Most countries who made through the cold war were able to do so by not only pitting one super power against the other but bidding time to strengthen their rear.



Mogadishu's Islamic movement

Same mistakes. The rear has not been strengthened.




The underlying lesson of these defeats are the same. Secure the rear before you go to a war.

NC

[Nolol cusub]

If this century is to be the century of Muslim empire, Young Muslim must learn from those who took Capitalism and defeated it.


The Bolshevik Revolution, The Chinese Revolution. How did they defeat capitalism?



.

[El Loco]

The issue here is the premise: That there is a war on Islam.

This is nonsense. There is a war on non-state violence and specifically a war against Al Qaeda. If Muslims would stop killing people in the name of religion, you would be surprised how quickly Western Armies left your countries.

If Muslims werre to unit in a giant, anti-western union, you would be exterminated post with using nuclear weapons. Flattend by the US, Russia and China, who are fed up with the bullshit and don't plan to wait until you get legs.

If you want peace, stop fighting everyone around you and lose the chip on your shoulder. Otherwise, we will keep killing you (although not as fast as you kill yourselves).

[Emperor_kuzco]

[quote="El Loco"]The issue here is the premise: That there is a war on Islam.

This is nonsense. There is a war on non-state violence and specifically a war against Al Qaeda. If Muslims would stop killing people in the name of religion, you would be surprised how quickly Western Armies left your countries.

If Muslims werre to unit in a giant, anti-western union, you would be exterminated post with using nuclear weapons. Flattend by the US, Russia and China, who are fed up with the bullshit and don't plan to wait until you get legs.

If you want peace, stop fighting everyone around you and lose the chip on your shoulder. Otherwise, we will keep killing you (although not as fast as you kill yourselves).[/quote]

Who opened the monkey cage

[Somaliweyn]

NC,

The best example of a country that cleared ''the rear'' at the zenith of Western imperialism, and could go to ''the front'' to confrent these Western imperialist powers was Meiji Japan.

When one looks into the history of Japan, and that of its neighbours one can see that the Meiji Restoration in Japan had the task of patiently developing Japan in order for it to resist Western imperialist encroachment and on the long term even compete with them in this imperialist game.

The Meiji rules put their effort into internal development as soon as they took power in 1868. They tenaciously studied the basis for Western power and drive for colonies and when they came to the conclusion that it was because of Capitalism and Industrialization, they began their own program to promote these two. Within a short period of 3 decades, they were ahead of their Asian neighbours and could even defeat China in the war of 1895. After this victory, the program of promoting capitalism was intensified and again within a period of 2 decades they could taste the fruits of their long patience in clearing ''the rear''. In 1905 they defeated the Russians, and could sit at the table with European/Western powers as an equal power.


Somalis/Muslims should be patient, why seek revenge for the pain the Christian mercenaries inflict on us now while the revenge can be sweeter later? Let us be patient, and focus on internal development while defending ourself from the visible injustices Christian mercenaries inlflict on our people and lands, but we should not go on the offensive, since we are not in the position to do so yet.

[gurey25]

Meiji Japan is not that good an example.

first of all japan is ethnically homogenous and politicaly stable for nearly 200 years till 1853 called the Edo Period.

Japan has had 200 years of peace and development during which all the political actors coalased and a strong national consiousness was achieved.

the closest japan comes to somalia would have been the sengoku period
during which all of japan was at war, and divided into aggressive mini states controlled by dominant Samurai clans.

Japan also had no foriegn occupation, this is the crucial difference,

Foriegn occupation is a virus, it weakens the fabric of society,
it changes the nature of the occupied and the occupier as well.

The proud arrogant independant somali is slowly turning into a snivelling , sycophant, a spineless morally degenerate..

Dictatorship and occupation are the two causes of these diseases.

Somalias problems are a microcosm of the larger islamic worlds problems,


we need to first achieve rule by true nationalists,
then we need to achieve political independance.
Today muslim countries may have thier own flags, currencies and a seat in the UN, but things havent changes much from the days of "Direct Western Imperial Rule"

Once independance is achieved than we can embark on other ambitous projects like "real" economic development and an attempt at unification of action with other muslim states etc etc.


Do you see now why japan is an entirley different ball game.
Few muslim countries are that lucky.
japan had the right conditions at the right time.

1.Competant and experiencd Nationalistic rulers
2.Japanese were more literate than most European countries
3.literacy and possesion of skills in local pre-industrial industries
4. Japan was free and Independant

if you have the right human resources its only a matter of aquiring technology
to industrialise, thats why japan industrialized in 30 years, and Korea in 20 .

[Somaliweyn]

Gurey25,

Good analysis. But don't forget that countries that are behind others can learn from the experiences of those countries ahead of them, thus drastically reducing the time it takes to leap forward.


In Somalia three things are developing slowly but steadily:

-Awareness
-Leadership
-Capitalist base

Whoever combines those three will achieve the goal of statebuilding and development within a short span of time.

So despite the fact that we are in sengoku kinda period, does not mean that we can't leap forward into a Meiji kinda period.

The only thing that assures me of this possibility is the time period we live in. In this 21st century, all ingredients that we need is within handreach, the only thing missing is the right group who can combine these ingredients in order to solve the problems of Somalis.

Did you know that the Japanese during the end of Edo period and arrival of the ''black ships'' were feverishly interested in everything Western, particularly Western knowledge.

In that time, a group of dedicated Japanese men would gather, and try to translate a Dutch book about Human body anatomy into Japanese. They would take around 2 weeks just to translate one sentence constiting of not more then 5 words. Slowly, but patiently, they could speeden the process of translation. If it wasn't for such dedicated, patient men Japan would not absorb the Western knowledge and technology and would have never achieved the position they occupy now in the world.

In this current time, there are plenty of Somalis that speak every major language on the world, books are openly available, free source (internet etc) is at our disposal, many Somalis are enrolled in Western universities, many Somalis live and work in Western countries.

Surely, things are more easy for us then was for the Japanese during the 18th-20th century.

[gurey25]

Yes aquistion of knowhow and technology is much easier today,
but first you need to develope the human resources that will be doing this task.
We do not have that, but we can make a start with those in the diaspora.

what we have to realise is that when developing an educational system from scratch
we do not have to repeat the mistakes of the past but learn from others.

We do not need diploma factories, we need a literate population with skills
you do not need a Diploma to achieve this, such an educational system would be a radical departure from the norm.



One question.

whatrole do you think education will play in the comming revolution?

will it play a part before or after or during the revolution.?

[Gedo_Boy]

I agree w/ the diploma factories.....the Gulf is a perfect example of that. They have a number of token PhDs but still bring in large numbers of expats to do the work.

Basically, they are trying to skip crucial steps in development that every major power went through: Industrialization.

This will be a major obstacle for Somalis because they look down on manual labor or anything that requires you to get dirty like factory jobs.

However, this is necessary because those industry & mfg. jobs are very crucial to building the intellectual capital of the people......Remember the Wright Brothers? They created the first airflight and they were bicycle mechanics. Technicians need to exist in Somalia that can operate on imported machinery before they can create their own machinery. Russia, China, Japan passed this phase.

If you look at the model of most industrialized nations, there is a symbiotic relationship between industry & academia. Industry drives and funds academic research. Without industry, schooling means nothing in the context of science & technology.

Somalis need to have that period where practical vocational work develops skill which can then be translated into application of that skill to new scientific problems. Somalis want to skip being the mechanic to jump straight into being a mechanical engineer.

A simple example: The 2 founders of Google both had educated parents.

- The Russian one's father was a mathematician at Univ of Maryland, College Park and his mother worked at NASA.

- The American one had a Computer Science professor at Univ. of Michigan and his mother was a computer programming instructor.

Being raised in an environment like that gave the 2 kids the exposure they needed to pursue technology even further. Imagine if Somali kids had a father that was a mechanic or electrician or just even educated and exposed to a lot of books as a child. That child would have an advantage over other children.

The key is EXPOSURE & ENCOURAGEMENT. That is why no development happens where development doesn't exist.

Somalis in the West need to realize that and the parents have to make a decisive effort to leave the neighborhoods where their children will get caught in the cycle of poverty & lack of opportunities even if it means them working hard and not taking welfare.

[Nolol cusub]

Japan developed, became reactionary state, defeated by the West in most inhuman fashion.



Muslim youths in Somalia or everywhere should have these priorities in order.


First: political revolution.

Smaller revolutions in many places untill the big anti-Napolean revolution.


Second: only after the first revolution can one entertain economic development.



The Bolshevik revolution and The Chinese Revolution


This is what the Bolshevik Revolution and the Chinese revolution accomplished In other words, what skill do the revolutionaries in Somalia and younger muslim generations need in order first to have a political revolution, then protect the revolution and finally have the luxury of buidling an economy.



Revolutionary tactics are different from revolutionary goals


Somalis and Muslims both dismiss these Revolutions as atheist revolutions, but then, when it comes to defeating the west they were the ones who accomplished it.



The history of the Bolshevik revolution is extremely valuable for the Muslim generations who want to defeat the West. What the bolsheviks wanted to acheive and what the Muslims revolutionaries want to acheive are very close.


NC.

[Gedo_Boy]

NC,

What have you read about the Bolshevik Revolution?