I support Secularism ! In the USA

[FAH1223]

[quote="Ican"]Arabman

What would you cite as an example of Islamist government then?
Would Saudi Arabia be considered secular or Islamist according to you?
Just because some secular Muslim governments today are not as powerful as western countries does not mean that Islamist government will fair better.

I support Secularism for the simple reason that it's run by the people and any mistakes made in A Seular government can be mended by changing laws, can the same be said of Islamist government?
For example, without secularism and some American's questioning the legality of segregation in America, America would be a different place.

And a secular government conforms to Islamic teachings.[/quote]

Islamic governance is the only way to go

The problem is the Muslim World is divided, we don't have a Caliph and everyone at this time has their own "interpretation" of Sharia

Secularism is good for a place like America where there are so many different people.

But a Muslim country HAS to use the Qur'an as its constitution. No ifs and buts.

[Ican]

[quote="FAH1223"][quote="Ican"]Arabman

What would you cite as an example of Islamist government then?
Would Saudi Arabia be considered secular or Islamist according to you?
Just because some secular Muslim governments today are not as powerful as western countries does not mean that Islamist government will fair better.

I support Secularism for the simple reason that it's run by the people and any mistakes made in A Seular government can be mended by changing laws, can the same be said of Islamist government?
For example, without secularism and some American's questioning the legality of segregation in America, America would be a different place.

And a secular government conforms to Islamic teachings.[/quote]

Islamic governance is the only way to go

The problem is the Muslim World is divided, we don't have a Caliph and everyone at this time has their own "interpretation" of Sharia

Secularism is good for a place like America where there are so many different people.

But a Muslim country HAS to use the Qur'an as its constitution. No ifs and buts.[/quote]

That's part of the reason why Islamist governments will never work, too many cleavages in Muslim world. This leaves too much room for abuse and opens us up for dictatorship where one can interpret the quran and hadith to his liking and their is no avenue for opposition.

Quran can be the basis for the constitution, in reality the basic tenets of Islam and most religions are also basic human values. With seculars government, you have legal recourse and you know the how things are handled and things change as a society changes. Their is no room for religion in politics.

[*Arabman]

[And a secular government conforms to Islamic teachings.]

No sir, you got that flat wrong. For example, Puntland is ruled by a secular government but allows Muslims to drink Ethiopian dry gin (among other alcoholic beverages). If you want proof, check the topic titled "300 bottles of Liquor found in Garoowe."

[But a Muslim country HAS to use the Qur'an as its constitution. No ifs and buts.]

Well said.

[FAH1223]

[quote="Ican"][quote="FAH1223"][quote="Ican"]Arabman

What would you cite as an example of Islamist government then?
Would Saudi Arabia be considered secular or Islamist according to you?
Just because some secular Muslim governments today are not as powerful as western countries does not mean that Islamist government will fair better.

I support Secularism for the simple reason that it's run by the people and any mistakes made in A Seular government can be mended by changing laws, can the same be said of Islamist government?
For example, without secularism and some American's questioning the legality of segregation in America, America would be a different place.

And a secular government conforms to Islamic teachings.[/quote]

Islamic governance is the only way to go

The problem is the Muslim World is divided, we don't have a Caliph and everyone at this time has their own "interpretation" of Sharia

Secularism is good for a place like America where there are so many different people.

But a Muslim country HAS to use the Qur'an as its constitution. No ifs and buts.[/quote]

That's part of the reason why Islamist governments will never work, too many cleavages in Muslim world. This leaves too much room for abuse and opens us up for dictatorship where one can interpret the quran and hadith to his liking and their is no avenue for opposition.

Quran can be the basis for the constitution, in reality the basic tenets of Islam and most religions are also basic human values. With seculars government, you have legal recourse and you know the how things are handled and things change as a society changes. Their is no room for religion in politics.[/quote]

I assume you are a Muslim.

Islam governs everything in our life, including our politics.

The Prophet Muhammad, Sallahu Alayhi Wasallam, is our example, guide and leader for how the Muslims conduct their political affairs. And sure, some of these secular, "Western", traditions are compatible with Islam. But if your country is a Muslim country, why not make Islam the state religion? Why not have Islam be your unifying factor above all? Besides, if we're talking democracy, we know Islam is for people to choose their leaders (just look at the mess the dictators in the Muslim World cause today)

The ONLY way the Muslim World can prosper and wallahi o billahi o tallahi I believe this is when we return to the deen even with our politics.

It makes no sense to use a system that does not work in the Muslim World. Or keep submitting to the Western nations way of governing and pointing their sort of "democracy" at the point of a gun.

Why have they advanced so far? Cause they went against religion with their daily affairs

Why did the Muslims have so many achievments in their day was because of the deen in every sphere of life

colonialism took its toll, but this is in the hadith...a time when our lands would be ruled with tyrants

[Grant]

[quote="*Arabman"][what do you think?

OF COURSE NOT]

In that case, they must have cheated to become todays dominant powers.[/quote]

The Europeans were not the only ones with colonies. The various Islamic empires colonized North Africa, Andalusia, the Eastern Roman Empire and Balkans, most of India etc. The wealth of the empires, and many of their achievements, came directly from the colonies. It didn't come from Arabia.

The wealth of the Omani empire was based almost entirely on slavery. Europeans bought slaves, but rarely if ever enslaved. That was left to Africans and Arabs who received payment they considered adequate. As many slaves went north into Muslim lands as went West to European holdings.
You are ignoring that.

Do I really need to point out again that Britain ended slavery before everybody else, and that, except for the holdings of a few Saudi Royals, slavery has not existed in the US since 1865. Note that slavery never did get a hold north of the Mason-Dixon line in the US. It existed in largest measure only as part of the plantation system in the South and supported only an agricultural and service economy.

Contrariwise, there are still slave markets in Mauretania and the Sudan TODAY. And we all know about the Saudis.

But, may I ask, Arabman, what have these issues to do with secularism in the US?

[*jr]

Secularism serves two ideologies: One being liberal from fanatic religious ideas; that mean you are Human first before you belong to any religion fanaticism; and second is to be open to human soul; which means you agree with other human beings that what they would want to achieve in life is in their own doing. Of course, many secular Muslims are doing what is expected of them in Islam, yet not from some ignorant preacher teaching at the local mosques.

[*Arabman]

[But, may I ask, Arabman, what have these issues to do with secularism in the US?]

Perhaps secularism allowed America and Europe to practice slavery and colonization? Perhaps it also allows America to practice modern slavery?

Modern slavery thriving in the U.S.
>http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2004/09/23_16691.shtml

[Grant]

Arabman,

Sorry. I haven't been able to get the link to work, so I don't know specifically what you are talking about here, but I will be the first to admit the State and Federal governments have not been enforcing the labor laws.

Going on, I think your view of secularism comes from the sort of government we see in most of the ostensibly Sunni states today, which doesn't really equate with the Western version.

Note that England has a state religion, the Anglican Church, but that it was the Quakers who led the fight that brought about the British abolition of slavery, I believe in 1806. Western secularism in the political sense means equality before the law for all, irrespective of religion. Again, this does NOT mean Western societies or the individuals comprising Western governments were necessarily irreligious or distorting their faith. Look at all the missionary activity that went on during the colonial period, for crying out loud. These people had varying faiths, but they were not irreligious people.

If anything, Western Secularism worked against both slavery and colonialism. Prior to it's development both slavery and colonialism were quite acceptable.

[ndolo]

I am for secularism in somalia

I mean government and religion should be separated and so should government and tribalism.

[FAH1223]

[quote="ndolo"]I am for secularism in somalia

I mean government and religion should be separated and so should government and tribalism.[/quote]

why? we are MUSLIMS and Islamic law is our duty.

We have no other minority religions

just because we have an ISLAMIC STATE doesn't mean it infringes on a person's life at home

[ndolo]

[quote="FAH1223"][quote="ndolo"]I am for secularism in somalia

I mean government and religion should be separated and so should government and tribalism.[/quote]

why? we are MUSLIMS and Islamic law is our duty.

We have no other minority religions

just because we have an ISLAMIC STATE doesn't mean it infringes on a person's life at home[/quote]

Because although we are all(supposedly) muslims each must find his way to heaven and not be forced there by a government or a nation.
He who performs his prayers because he fears retaliation or fears for his life is not really GOD FEARING IS HE ?. In order for true fear of ALLAH to be displayed one must have libertarian freedoms otherwise he might as well be bowing to you or to the authority.

[FAH1223]

[quote="ndolo"][quote="FAH1223"][quote="ndolo"]I am for secularism in somalia

I mean government and religion should be separated and so should government and tribalism.[/quote]

why? we are MUSLIMS and Islamic law is our duty.

We have no other minority religions

just because we have an ISLAMIC STATE doesn't mean it infringes on a person's life at home[/quote]

Because although we are all(supposedly) muslims each must find his way to heaven and not be forced there by a government or a nation.
He who performs his prayers because he fears retaliation or fears for his life is not really GOD FEARING IS HE ?. In order for true fear of ALLAH to be displayed one must have libertarian freedoms otherwise he might as well be bowing to you or to the authority.[/quote]

The government's duty isn't that though. The government's duty is to implement the laws that are established for us.

Stuff like adultery, the act of homosexuality...has the whole 4 witnesses thing

the government shouldn't go after those who don't pray, you are right it is between them and Allah

but all the legal stuff needs to be used with the sharia

[ndolo]

FAH123

If a government is based on religion then all the laws will be those of the religion.

You steal and your hand is chopped off
You fornicate and ..........
you don't pray and ........

You have not choise but to be a believer where as believing is a matter of choise otherwise heaven and hell lose meaning in my oppinion.

All the prophets preached, like prophet NUX preached for 900 yrs, did he force them, NO.
Same goes for all the prophets.

Therefore religion is never by force and governments force people to obey the laws.

[*Arabman]

[You steal and your hand is chopped off
You fornicate and ..........
you don't pray and ........

You have not choise but to be a believer where as believing is a matter of choise otherwise heaven and hell lose meaning in my oppinion.

All the prophets preached, like prophet NUX preached for 900 yrs, did he force them, NO.
Same goes for all the prophets.

Therefore religion is never by force and governments force people to obey the laws.]

Are you saying during the time of the prophet (salallahu alayhi wasalam), one could steal without his hand chopped off, one could fornicate without being stoned, one could drink alcohol without Islamic punishment, etc?

[ndolo]

Arabman

No ,i don't know islamic history that well

I am saying what i have said which is that prophets brought messages from ALLAH and it was not their job to enforce it. If iam wrong correct me please.

Our own prophet' uncle could not believe and he was told by ALLAH (subxaanahu watacaala) that hanuun comes from ALLAH and that the prophets job was to make a ware. I hope i have said it right ,if you know better correct me.

So who then are we to force people to bow down to ALLAH. And if they did so out fearing you,are they then praying to you or to ALLAH?