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Somaliweyn, again, I agree with your points. I have numerously repeated, ignoring, completely erasing the clan system from our society is no answer to our predicament. I uttered the words of "its not qabiil, but rather qabyaalad" its how we use it. This is interesting dialogue, nonetheless, its distracting from my point. So bro, if you could answer my remaining questions that would be great.

Good, so we have a common ground on which we can continue this dialogue.

Now you assert that my views are more pro-Hawiye then pro-Somali? Is this correct? Can I ask you how you have arrived at this point?

When its evident (from your writing) that is not your main concern nor is it the reason why you are constantly on the edge on this site about Ethiopia occupying our land and so forth.

Can I conclude that you came to that conclusion about my views as a consquence of what you wrote (see quotation).

If that is true, then how can you explain my writings pre-Ethiopian invasion/occupation? There are writings from 2005 (pre-Ethiopian occupation) which are strictly in line with my writings of anno 2008.

First explain to me that, and I will continue the other questions.

Somaliweyn, like I have stated before, what I think does not matter anymore. We'll just come back to this later. For now answer the questions, so I can fully understand your logic, I don't want to come to conclusions on my own thus is why I have asked you these questions. And no more distractions brother. Just answer the other questions, I await answers which could help me and others see your position in a more clear light.

and quite frankly I was politely trying to hint that your priority is "Hawiyedom" and the Hawiye populace, yet you try make it seem like you care for overall Somali populace. When its evident (from your writing) that is not your main concern nor is it the reason why you are constantly on the edge on this site about Ethiopia occupying our land and so forth.

''what I think does not matter anymore''

''I don't want to come to conclusions on my own thus is why I have asked you these questions. ''

First of all, I dont mean to pin you down on your words but the things you say quite contradict each other. I only try to make sense of them and connect them to each other.

On one hand you are quite interested in my views, on the other hand you have your own thoughs about these views of mine and have already some pre-conclusions. In order to keep the dialogue clean from any preconceived conclusions or thoughts it is better to ask each other directly what we think, how we have come to that thought or conclusion etc. Thats the reason I asked you some questions in order to clarify things before continueing. Remember, this is a dialogue not an interview. So please clarify the earlier points I raised.

The reasons why I took the two different stances about you in this topic is, I have seen your views being presented on here, but not the full context or as close as one can present it. That is why I have an opinion of you, but since all your thoughts were never presented together, I created this topic to better understand you. Once you answer these questions, then we can have the dialogue because you will be presenting a great deal of your outlook of the Somali situation. Quite frankly, I don't want to look up old posts of yours because its time consuming. Those three or four question I have asked will be enough to continue the dialogue.

Clear and sincere answer. To continue with your questions, you asked:

-How to solve Somalia's problem?
-The different factions who want to govern the populace?
-What we wish to happen when the Ethiopians are defeated (which is the correct word instead of ''left'' because they would never leave if they were not made to leacve).
-What and how can the Somali populace unite?
-Outlook on this Islamic movement and their possible role within Somalia.

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As you can understand those are many questions, but all related. I also assume you do understand that in order to answer them, you need to have the patience to read the different posts and see how they are connected.

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The first question, how to solve Somalia's problem. To be honest, and this may sound logical, to solve the problem you need to understand it first. This is linked to your second questions ''the different factions that want to govern the populace'' Ironically, these different factions have all their own respective understanding of what the problem is, and how it can be solved. The history of Somalia is even contested these days, as has become plain in the discussions on this forum. To give an example, remember the discussion about Somalia history of 1960-1990 in which Voltage, Twisted-Logic, I, Murax and many others participated?

Anyways, you are interested in my views concerning the problem and solution. In my eyes, the problem is clear: Somalis are back to square one. The project of nation-state which was launched in 1960 came to a bloody end in 1991. Since 1991, Somali society has fragmented further, and all symbols or traces of the previous state have been destroyed. The 18 years of civil war have had tremendous impact on Somalis in general, and still has. Besides this, every Somali group experienced and viewed this civil war from their own perspective. As a result of this and the 30-years failed experience with nation-state mistrust and animosity is cleary visible, both politically and socially. This explains why Somalis, the good strata of every group (forget the bad people within every group) could never come together and sit around a table and discuss the common problems which they all endure.

That is the problem in our view, the solution is quite practical and satisfying to every Somali group.

Again I understand, and your explanation is on the money, but does not fully pertain to what I am asking you. Somaliweyn you have on numerous occasions stated that the Ethiopians and "their stooges" must be cleared from the Somali stage. What I am trying to ask you is, after that happens, what DO YOU THINK should happen, which faction that exists today shall govern the populace? Do you wish to see a centralized government soon afterward? How can that be achieved? How will a more peaceful and united Somalia be born out of this? Basically, what do you think should happen politically after the Ethiopians are forced out of Somalia with all those different entities in Somalia? You make it seem like the expulsion of Ethiopians and their followers from Somalia is the key to everything, you present that in a nationalistic tone, when I have yet to read a nationalistic ideal presented by you after the ousting of the xabasho (and this is what I gathered from reading your previous posts walaal).

I believe that no Somali group or person would disagree with the notion that every village/town/city/region in Somalia should have in place representative governing structures that facilitate collective decision-making in these places.

The whole Somali problem was that we never experienced the development of genuine governing structures and administration. Ofcourse we had tribal political structures like chieftancy, council of elders etc but these were ment to solve problems with neighbouring clans or internal clan issues and were thus more socially-oriented then towards the development of a state or other kind of regional administration.

The only period Somalis witnessed some level of living under a central administration was 1960-1990. And even in this era, the system of governance was only at the centre (major cities like Mogadishu, hargeise etc). Mogadishu was the seat of the government, and centre of the land. The city/regional governing structures were nothing more then satelittes around the central government in Mogadishu.

When the central government was destroyed, and the centre (Mogadishu) was destroyed most Somali people had no other option then to flee to abroad, since the periphery (village's, towns, distant regions) were neglected severly by the previous governments.

What we have learned from this 18 years of statelessness is that we should first focus on building the periphery, i.e buidling local governing structures for villages, towns, cities and regions which then can adress the needs of the people living in those places. After these local governing structures succeed in adressing the basic needs of the people living in villages/towns/cities/regions can people be attracted to actually spread themselves around those places instead of been concentrated in large city-centre's just because these places have some level of administration and offer opportunities for making a living.

Another major lesson which we have learned is that we should have collective decision-making mechanisms in place. This lesson and the previous one have become the most visible to the people in Mogadishu. Why?

Simple, they all came from distant regions like Hiiraan, Mudug, Galgaduud, Middle Shabelle, Lower Shabelle, Bay/Bakool etc and flocked into Mogadishu when the central government was destroyed. They came with the promise of a better life. What has happened since then? The decision-making fell in the hands of a few men, who during the coarse of the 18 years turned out to be nothing more then opportunists, warlords, traitors and plain criminals. These individuals failed to translate the hopes and wishes of the people into reality, and prolonged the anarchy and civil war. Fast foward it to 2007, Ethiopians (TPLF who entered Addis Abebba in May 1991, while USC entered Mogadishu in Jan 1991) came into Somalia, occupied major places and drove 1 million people from Mogadishu. You should try to understand the sheer effect this has on the people that have experienced this ugly turn of events.

These 1 million that fled the city went back to their villages/towns/cities/regions just to find out that there is nothing there that can sustain the same level of living as in Mogadishu, which to be honest was already low. The 18 years people were in Mogadishu ment 18 years of neglect of these villages/towns/cities and regions, and the 18 years of focus on building central government ment 18 years of neglect of building local governing structures.

What has become more clear is that we should never again put the decision-making in the hands of a few men. This lesson should have been learned since 1960, and more so during the 1969-1991. But apparently people didn;t, and had to experience another period of hard life as a consequence of the desastrous effect of placing the decision-making in the hands of a few men.

So these two notion of (local/regional/national) representative governing structures and collective decision-making are important and interrelated.

The question is how do these two notions answer your question concerning who should govern the populace, what faction, and what the role of Islamic movement should be in Somalia, and more importantly how can Somali people unite?

Hint: Look no further then the countries we know the best and have lived most of our life. Do not those countries have representative governing structures and collective decision-making in place? Also, look more into them when it comes to judiciary system vis-a-vis central/federal government.

The intent of my topic was to try to better understand you, to see if I have been missing something because you so vigorously campaign your objective of the Ethiopian overthrow and dismantling of the TFG and your overall outlook of the Somali dilemma as nationalistic one when its not. You are like the lot who use religion for their own personal goals, in your case its a sense of nationalism, that your logic is for the betterment of all the masses when your sentences speak volume of Hawiyenimo; the undeniable central theme of your last post. I'm not saying that your desires of liberated Hawiye lands are ill-thought, I fully understand where your coming from, and would also like to see the Hawiye lands, Somali soil, liberated from the xabashis. But the mere fact that you portray your clannish viewpoint as a nationalistic one is quite irksome. There are members of this site who have this clannish outlook and still have this nationalistic drive in them, like you, but I have yet to see a member present their clannish views as a nationalistic and combine the two as if they siamese twins paired from the hip ; some try to paint their clannish desires as religiously guided buts its quite far-fetched.

I have asked you to explain to me in your view, how, after the ousting of the Ethiopians and the TFG from Somalia--- something you advocate for, loosely throwing around "treasonous" to others whom do not have the same outlook as you--- can our country come to peace and unite. Essentially, your response was, the Hawiye masses after they overthrew the government with their fallacious assumption of "a promised better life" was robbed by Hawiye leaders and thus they have learned from this and they need to built locally governing structures so to be free from the shackles of centralized government, that they once thought they were free once they toppled the centralized government that has existed.

It is really quite evident that you no other perspective then the return to the Hawiye clan going back to the status quo of the 90's but with more capable internal leaders. So do not try to paint your point of view as one that is for the betterment of the Somali populace when that is not your major concern, obvious by your writing.

Salaams.

Fadhi ku hadal will not solve somalia's problems..Action speaks louder dan words 8)

SB,

As I said earlier:

''On one hand you are quite interested in my views, on the other hand you have your own thoughs about these views of mine and have already some pre-conclusions. In order to keep the dialogue clean from any preconceived conclusions or thoughts it is better to ask each other directly what we think, how we have come to that thought or conclusion etc. ''

You have the habit to jump to conclusions without further inquiry.

For example, I analyzed Somalia's problem, and then took the experience of Hawiye, particularly those in Mogadishu, as an example for illustration purposes. Yet without further inquiry as to why I did that, and how it fits into the previous story, you jump to accusations and conclusions.

Can I conclude that you started this topic with preconceived conclusions about me? And what ever sentence that slightly supports this preconveived image you jump to conclusions and accusations?

You should always inquire before making conclusions.

Also, you seem to stress the Ethiopian occupation and puppet regime, while forgetting that this is a problem which is recent: post-2007.

You forget the period of 1991-2007, and think that my writings are only about post-2007, while I'm here writing the same stuff as early as 2004.

I have stressed in this topic that I fully understand your general examination of the Somali political situation. I have again and again expressed that I want you to answer specific questions I have asked because they give me and insight to your perspective of the current situation in Somalia. I have already seen this kind of rhetoric from you (minus the post that I last analyzed) and that's why I said what do you think should happen now if your hope of Ethiopia [forcefully] leaving and the dismantling of TFG(you do want that right?) occurs. You illustrated the Hawiye outcome of such events occurring, and future actions that should be taken by the Hawiye masses so as to not fall into these kind of predicament once again. YOU linked the question with "Hawiyedom," not I, nor was it a setup by me, my analysis was not based on nothing but your last post, how did I showcase preconceived conclusions about you?

Do you wish the answer the questions again, this time relating to the general Somali public, and from the present on the outcomes of Somalia once Ethiopia is kicked out and the TFG dismantle?

Now the question is how can the different Somali groups come to terms?

Simple, most villages/towns and regions have clear link to particular groups. So it is obvious for every group to preoccupy themselves with the question of how to organize local governing insitutionts for their lands. This process already started in Northern Somalia, but both models have turned out to be reactionary. The Northwest model is straightforward anti-Somalia with its secessionist agenda. The Northeast model broke down as it became evident that particular indivuals only nurtured it in order to use it as a launching-base for the attainment of central power. Also, the principles of the men that were behind the creation of this model is straightforward anti-Somalia since these men had no problem to use Ethiopia for their petty clannish interest. So as is clear, both models are not workable in creating a strong Somalia.

What we need is for genuine local governing structures in most villages/towns/cities/regions in which the people of those places are enabled to elect the kind of administration they want. This is possible for even highly contested cities/regions like Kismaanyo/Lower Jubba, Mogadishu/Benadir etc. Once the people succeed into building a system in which the citizens of those places can express their wishes and elect the kind of administration they want, you will see that diverse Somali groups can coexist in cities/regions. Also, the stress on representative local governing structures is related to the stress on collective decision-making. The people in village's/towns/cities/regions should be able to express what they want, instead of a few individuals (opportunists who call themselves ''representatives''/faction leaders) interwining their personal ambitions with the interest of the people. Once people are enabled to express what they want, and this results into the establishment of administration the people have elected, can we speak of collective decision-making since the people themselves elected the administration collectively. From here on, its a matter of designing and implementing a system of balances and check.

Now the question which faction should govern the populace?

For local/regional case, this is simple: namely those the people have elected in villages/towns/cities etc. For the national case, we first need a period of transition in which every group and every region have in place some sort of functioning local governing structures. After these different groups succeed in that, and through elections appoint representatives, can the different representatives of the different groups come together and search for common ground to work on. The goal to work to would be to devise a system in which whoever wants to lead Somalia should go through a process of elections, first elected by the city/region the one lives, then by the national party he is member of, then contest with others for the presidency. But this system should have clear checks and balances.

The other question, the role of the Islamic movement in this desired development path for Somalia.

u 2 have lot of time on ur hands walle