Madhabs

[Grant]

There is no Alzheimer's involved. The Prophet did not recommend, and the women of the Hijaz today, do not practice pharoanic FGM. The Prophet commanded circumcision for both men and women, but recommended only small or shallow cuts in the area of the clitoris for women.

The Sunnah contradicts Shafiici practice.

[The Nomad]

There is no Alzheimer's involved. The Prophet did not recommend, and the women of the Hijaz today, do not practice pharoanic FGM. The Prophet commanded circumcision for both men and women, but recommended only small or shallow cuts in the area of the clitoris for women.

The Sunnah contradicts Shafiici practice.

Shafici practice? Do you understand the difference between a practice being an part of a certain Madhab's teachings (meaning it is restricted to that particular school of thought in which case you'd be right) and a practice which is merely performed by adherents of that Madhab, although the only evidence for doing so is not the Madhab's teachings, but the Nabi's statements, making it a Sunni practice, not a 'Shafici practice'?

Circumcision is optional, one who does it is acting upon optional Sunnah, one who does not is not sinning, merely missing out on hasanat by not acting upon the Prophet's recommendations.

[Grant]

Pharoanic circumcision is not optional in the Sunnah. It is simply not part of the Sunnah, and it is emphatically what the Prophet recommended against. I have read the hadiths and am sure I can find them for you.

Pharoanic circumcision is pre-Islamic and un-Islamic. Period.

[surrender]

you know waxaa kunacay religious threads in snet mataqaan? the most retarted idiots and the biggest gaala raac baa soogala, waxay doonaan bay kuhadlaan, diinta one BIG joke bayba latahayba, kuwana waa the only time ay caayaan, diinta in indirect way. walee messed up people baa meesha kabuuxa.

[The Nomad]

Pharoanic circumcision is not optional in the Sunnah. It is simply not part of the Sunnah, and it is emphatically what the Prophet recommended against. I have read the hadiths and am sure I can find them for you.

Pharoanic circumcision is pre-Islamic and un-Islamic. Period.

Why do you insist on constantly being wrong? First you say 'Shafici practice' like it means something and now 'pre-Islamic'? What does it being pre-Islamic change? Who is arguing that female circumcision began when the Prophet explicitly endorsed it?

What's the point posting Hadith you cannot comprehend? If you knew anything about Islam you'd know there isn't a single Sahih Hadith regarding the topic, all that relate to it are non-authentic and poor.

[The Nomad]

you know waxaa kunacay religious threads in snet mataqaan? the most retarted idiots and the biggest gaala raac baa soogala, waxay doonaan bay kuhadlaan, diinta one BIG joke bayba latahayba, kuwana waa the only time ay caayaan, diinta in indirect way. walee messed up people baa meesha kabuuxa.

You're only crying because it's MJ nature to revile anything that restores a woman's dignity. If you're against female circumcision, say so. Nobody will judge you for something you can't help, abaayo.

[Grant]

Wrong?

http://www.jannah.org/genderequity/equityappendix.html

Nomad,

See what you get if you search female circumcision in Islam.....

[The Nomad]

Yes, wrong. Did you even read my second paragraph?

From your own source:

"No mention of female circumcision is to be found in the Qur'an either directly or indirectly. There is no known Hadeeth which requires female circumcision. Some argued, however, that one Hadeeth, while not requiring female circumcision, appears to accept it: "Circumcision is a commedable act for men (Sunnah) and is an honorable thing for women (Makromah)."

Grant, as an old man with interest in the deen I give you time I wouldn't waste educating others but don't abuse it, saxib.

[Grant]

Yes, Nomad, I actually did read your insulting second paragraph. That is why I suggested you search "female circumscision in Islam." I am not the one that has difficulty reading either hadiths or history.

There is a lot of subterranean Shafiici sheik stuff going on among Somalis that condems pharaonic circumcision publicly but promotes it privately. This needs to be combatted, and your attitude is not helping.

[The Nomad]

^

Why do I need to research the subject when we both agree I am right and that female circumcision is sanctioned in Islam?

That isn't relevant to what we're discussing.

[Grant]

You are totally, and I assume intentionally, missing the point, which is the form of circumcision involved. The Prophet did not sanction pharoanic circumcision, which was my only point about the Shafiicis.


Sheesh!

[The Nomad]

Nor did the Prophet give any advice on which forms of circumcision are condoned are which are not, the Ulema's general consensus is that what liberals call FGM is not only sanctioned, but encouraged.

Is that clear enough?

[Grant]

My apologies for posting all this. I had hoped you would read it from the link above as it is quite clear about the form of female circumcision praciced by Somalis:

http://www.jannah.org/genderequity/equityappendix.html

"3. SHOULD FEMALE CIRCUMCISION BE BANNED OR RESTRICTED?

Shari'ah (Islamic law) divides actions into five categories; mandatory, commendable, permissible, detestable and strictly forbidden. Female circumcision falls within the category of the permissible. It was probably on this basis that some scholars opposed a sweeping ban of this practice. Before discussing this view, it is important to distinguish between different types of procedures that were and still are called circumcision.


TYPES OF CIRCUMCISION

a) Removal of the hood (or prepuce) of the clitoris. This procedure is, to some degree, analgous to male circumcision since in both cases, no part of the sexual organ is cut off. In both cases also, it is only the foreskin, or outer fold of the skin, which is cut off. Properly done, it is not likely to cause any "matrimonial" problem. While some may call it "sunnah circumcision," this is their own appellation and not that of the Prophet (P) who used the term Sunnah only in the context of male circumcision.
b) Removal of the entire clitoris (clitorectomy) along with part of the labia minora, which is satured together leaving an opening. This is a form of mutilation.

c) Removal of the entire clitoris, labia minora and medial part of the labia majora, whith both sides of the female organ stitched together leaving a small opeing. This procedure requires tying together the child's legs of nearly three weeks. [9] It is called the Pharaonic procedure but may as well be called "mutilation".


It is obvious that the second and third procedures were never mandated, encouraged or even consented to by the Prophet (P). They even violate a known rule in Shari'ah prohibiting the cutting off of any part of the human body except for unavoidable reasons (e.g. medical treatment, trimming nails or hair, or for an explicitly specified reason such as male circumcision). Such necessity or need does not exist in female circumcision. Nothing justifies genital mutilation. In fact, no mutilation is allowed by Islam even in the battlefield. Not only are these two procedures unjustifiable, they are brutal, inhumane and in violation of Islam.
The remaining question then relates to the first procedure. Some (e.g. the late Rector of Al-Azhar University, Sheikh Gad Al-Haque) argued that since the Prophet (P) did not ban female circumcision, it falls within the category of the permissble. As such, there is no ground for a total ban on it. However, it is within the spirit of Shari'ah to restrict something that is permissible if discovered to be harmful. For example, all fish are permisible to eat. Should a particular type of fish be proven to be poisonous or harmful, it could be banned based on a known Shari'ah rule (Al-dharar Yozaal), or harm must be removed. The real issue then boils down to whether the first procedure is harmful or not. Granted that such a procedure may not be seriously damaging like the other two, it may be argued that it is painful, traumatic and often performed in an unhygienic setting leading to infection and other problems. [10] Even if the procedure is performed by a physician, it is so delicate that not all physicians master it. [11]

It should be noted that some people oppose female circumcision as part of their opposition to any "tradition" as old and invalid. This is as inappropriate as practicing female circumcision because it is a "tradition," regardless of its consistency with Islam or not. The practice should be evaluated objectively, on the basis of


a)whether it is required religiously or not
b) whether there are medical and other relevant issues to be considered in evaluating this practice.


While any form of female circumcision is already legally banned in some countries [12] and may be banned in others in the future, it is not suggested here that this is the only option. In societies and cultures where the practice is well entrenched and socio-cultural pressures for it are great [13], abrupt legal banning may not end the practice. It may cause it to be practiced "underground" and under more problematic circumstances. However the problem is serious enough that some action is needed. A starting point, perhaps, is to begin by educationg the masses in countries where female circumcision is commonly practiced. All possible media should be used in the process. The contents of this appendix may serve as an outline of such an educational program, or it is so hoped. In any case, the conclusion which appears to be certain is that there is no single text of the Qur'an and Hadeeth which requires [14] female circumcision.





Stewart, Rosemary, "Female Circumcision: Implicaitons for North American Nurses, " in Journal of Psychosocial Nursing, vol. 35, no.4, 1997, p. 35.

Haqa'iq Ilmiyya Hawla Khitan Al-Inaath (in Arabic), Jam'iyyat Tanzeem Al-Usrah, Cairo, 1983, p.7.

Ibid, p. 8.

Ibid, p. 8.

Al-shawkani, Nayl Al-awtar, Dar Al-Jeel, Beirut, 1973, vol. 1, p. 139.

A broader definition of Sunnah is "the words, actions and approval (or consent) of Prophet Muhammad (P)." In the context of religious obligations, however, Sunnah refers to acts that are commendable but not obligatory. It is in that context that the Prophet Muhammad (P) used the term Sunnah to refer to male circumcision but not female circumcision.

Al-Shawkani, op. cit, p.139.

Al-Tabarani, quoted in Al-albani, Muhammad N., Silsilat al-Ahadeeth Al-Sahihah, Al Maktab Al-Islami, Beirut, Lebanon, 1983, vol. 2, Hadeeth no. 722, pp. 353-358 espeically pp. 356-257. See also N. keller (translator/editor), The Reliance of the Traveller by Ahmad al-Masri, Modern Printing Press, Dubai, 1991, e 4.3, p. 59.

Stewart, op. cit, p.35

Including bleeding, scars, painful intercourse, difficulty to achieve sexual fulfillment which may lead to pain, reducing chances of pregnancy, causing infertility in some instances, chronic pelvic infection, urinary tract infection, psychological problems and unhappy husbands. See Stewart, op. cit, pp. 36-37.

The author was informed by some physicians that since the clitoris itself is quite tiny, even tinier in younger girls it is very diffucult to do the first procedure proberly even by a non-specialist physician. The much easier procedure of male circumcision is usually referred to a physician with expeirence in that particular procedure.

Presently female circumcision is illegal in Britain and other European countries through the passage of the Prophibition of Female Circumcision Act of 1985. Due to the publicity given to this topic recently, other countries are expected to follow suit, especially those with large number of immigrants from countries which practice this procedure. Stewart, op. cit, p. 36.

Some such pressure is the non-Islamically based cultural norms that only a circumcised woman is fit for marriage, other superstitious ideas that a child born to an uncircumcised woman is likely to die. See for example Stewart, op. cit, p. 36.

Reference is sometimes made to a saying of the Prophet Muhammad (P) narrated in Ahmad, also in Malik with similar wordings to the effect that if the two areas of circumcision (for a male and female) touch one another, than Ghusl (bathing) is required. This expression simply signified that after the intimate matrimonial relationship, both husband and wife must take a complete bath before they perform their daily prayers. The relevant part of this Hadeeth, however, is its reference to the two circumcised parts. Imam Ahmad uses this Hadeeth as an evidence that women (in Madinah) used to be circumcised. This is no evidence, however, that it was religiously required. It could have been a cultural practice which was not prohibited.
Even the few Ahadeeth which Al-Albani considered to be authentic do not require female circumcision as discussed earlier. In fact, some of them speak against radical forms of circumcision.

See Sabiq, Al-Sayyid, Fiqh Al-Sunnah, Darl Al-Kitab Al-Arabi, Beirut, 1969, vol. 1, pp. 37 and 66. Also Al-Albani, Muhammad N., Tamam Al-Minnah Fi Al-Ta'leeq Ala Fiq Al-Sunnah, Al-Maktabah Al-Islamiyyah, Amman, 3rd printing, 1409 A.H., p. 67, and Muwatta' Al-Imam Malik, Dar Al-Qalam, Beirut, n.d., pp 50-51.

[The Nomad]

"It is obvious that the second and third procedures were never mandated, encouraged or even consented to by the Prophet"

I stopped reading there. Don't waste my time.

We both came to a conclusion 3 posts ago, it's sanctioned in Sunni Islam. That's all.

[Grant]