Soul and cloning.

[Alphanumeric]

Soul enters body of fetus after 120days, RE:4th hadeeth in Arba'een an-Nawawi, B&M.

Whether or not humans can be cloned, I don't know. However, I do not doubt that somewhere in this decrepit world, in dark, sterile, cold, bleak laboratories, there are heartless and sad people attempting to bring this concept to fruition. I sincerely hope they fail miserably.

If humans are ever cloned, what will be the result? I envision a vegetative state of sorts, where the only sounds able to be made are muffled growls and tightened breaths, from bodies with no thoughts of any kind. Perhaps there will be physical wanting for food, breath, maybe even sex, but the thoughts that move the body do not exist. They will lay there, without voice, waiting to die.

I'm also concerned with attempts at reanimation.

[gurey25]

i do not see any problem .
A cloned body will naturally have another soul because it is another living creature.

and i am assuming you are thinking of huma cloning with accelerated growth, that will gve you a new clone within a few months or so to fully grown proportions.

I do not see any major technological obstacles...

We are on the way to mastering the body, but we may not be able to master the soul.
memory and personality imprints are not synonymous with a soul either, because you can have a cloned body with imprinted memories of a living person and they may appear to be the same person body and mind but they will be 2 different people because they will have 2 souls..

[Alphanumeric]

gurey25,

What justification or evidence can you provide that a cloned human will be given a soul?

[gurey25]

i can see auras

[Alphanumeric]

Lol, that's a pretty convincing reason, for me at least. Unfortunately most aren't as accepting.

[934]

Cloning & Islam

Let us first briefly explain what cloning is

A "human clone" is a time-delayed identical twin of another person. A clone is not an exact replica of the original, but a much younger identical twin. As with identical twins, the clone and the original person will have different fingerprints. Scientists extract needed cells from the original person then implant them into a womb for the normal growth process and eventual birth.

Islam encourages us to use science to find cures to all diseases by developing medicines that will do just that. However, this should not be taken as a green light from God to do anyhting we want. Hence, you will read why cloning may not be condoned in Islam.

One of the main reason is attributed to the chaotic intermexing that cloning causes in blood relations and family genealogical trees. If you look closer at the cloning creation process you will discover that the end results of cloning will be the birth of an innocent bastards or incestuous children.

The way scientists plan to do this is by implanting the womb of any human female with a donor's DNA and the host's egg. The host could be the original mother or a surrogate mother. In the case of a surrogate mother is used, then the child shall be born without Wedlock (A bastard, adulterous ) and if the original mother is used, then an incestuous child is born if they cloned her Father, Brother, Uncle, Son, etc&

Some will say what if the natural mother decided to clone her natural birth son or daughter using her womb for the cell implant and eventual birth? To answer this, one must know what is the allowed conception in Islam and how We were intended to procreate by GOD.

The Allowed conception in Islam is through marriage between a man and a woman which through the mixing, fertilizing and growth of the couple’s egg and sperm in the womb of the female. the end result of this process will be the birth of a child.

(Islam condones In vitro fertilization if for some reason, the mother can’t be fertilized normally and if you can guarantee that no one will change or tamper with the specimen in the lab Prior to implanting the natural mother. Like the case we heard recently, a doctor used his own sperm in the lab to father hundreds of babies without the knowledge of the implanted would be mothers.

In addition, using a female other than your wife as a Surrogate mother is not allowed in Islam. Islam calls this adulterous plain and simple and it can also be incestuous. As in one case I heard on the news, when doctors implanted a mother with her dead son’s frozen sperm in her so she can have him as a child again! )

So the answer for the above question is " Islam does not condone Cloning not even if the original mother was used in the cloning process"

Know this “each clone will definitely have a separate and unique soul.”


With all this in mind, let's look at cloning, scientists extract a somatic cell from a donor (or anyone they want to clone) extract the cell’s DNA then combine it with unfertilized female egg then implant it into the womb of a surrogate mother.

As you see in this whole process there is no male sperm present here! No father is involved and in addition, any womb will be utilized to nurture the growth and birth of a child.

As a result,

1- Women will no longer need men to procreate.

2- Companies will use science to create human factories and or parts.

3- A boom of 1 parent family homes will create many dysfunctional households.

4- Human trade will rise when average people can make good money supplying babies.

5- Most important of all, this will lead to the creation of many incestuous and adulterous innocent children.

Islam condones none of this. My Conclusion shall be as follows, Cloning conflicts with the social order that GOD set forth for us since the creation of Adam. (May peace be upon him)


Conclusion


I. All cases introducing third parties into a marriage, whether a womb, an egg, a sperm or a cloning cell are not permissible.

II. Ordinary human cloning, in which the nucleus of a living somatic cell from an individual is placed into the cytoplasm ofan egg devoid of its nucleus, is not to be permitted. If exceptional cases emerge in the future, they should be considered to verify compliance with the Shari'ah.

III .All Muslim countries are called upon to formulate the necessary legislation to prevent foreign research institutes, organisations and experts from directly or in directly using Muslim countries for experimentation on human cloning or promoting it.

IV. The Islamic Organisation for Medical Sciences and other similar bodies are called upon to monitor all scientific developments in the field of cloning and define its terminology and organise seminars and meetings, as required, to determine and articulate the Islamic rulings and principles pertaining thereto.

V. Specialised committees should be set up to look into the ethics of biological research and adopt protocols for study and research in Muslim countries, and prepare a document on foetal rights as a prelude to formulate legislation on the rights of the foetus.

http://www.freepctools.com/cloning.htm

[NoAngst]

Modern science is premised on the Positivism philosophy and its modern derivative post-Positivism. According to Positivism, science should only concern itself with what can be measured or observed. Everything else -- souls, after life, hell/heaven, etc -- are all outside the purview of science. That is why science makes the world a better place to live. Think of all the medicines, improved crop yields, technological innovations that was made possible only with the application of scientific discipline predicated on Positivist philosophy. Positivism is essentially a secular philosophy -- it separates metaphysics from epistemology. Thus, from the perspective of science, the dilemma sorrounding souls and cloning is a non-issue.

Who cares what some Shiikhs say about cloning and souls?

[Alphanumeric]

Who cares what some Shiikhs say about cloning and souls?

The OP was specific in his wording, wanting to learn the view of religions with regards human cloning and connection with the soul. Whether or not a soul exists is outside of the discussion, and I read your post as an attack on religions, in particular my own; Islam. I think that goes against the forum rules. Please refrain from doing so.

[Mochahontas]

cloning and a human soul is a dfifferent project,......theirs no way you can accomplish to make a clone and inject life into it because clones are preceived as a lifeless being............teeda kale there hasnt been a successful human clone done yet nor will there be one anytime soon.........so i wouldnt hold your breathe on it.

[Samatar10]

Soul enters body of fetus after 120days, RE:4th hadeeth in Arba'een an-Nawawi, B&M.

Whether or not humans can be cloned, I don't know. However, I do not doubt that somewhere in this decrepit world, in dark, sterile, cold, bleak laboratories, there are heartless and sad people attempting to bring this concept to fruition. I sincerely hope they fail miserably.

If humans are ever cloned, what will be the result? I envision a vegetative state of sorts, where the only sounds able to be made are muffled growls and tightened breaths, from bodies with no thoughts of any kind. Perhaps there will be physical wanting for food, breath, maybe even sex, but the thoughts that move the body do not exist. They will lay there, without voice, waiting to die.

I'm also concerned with attempts at reanimation.

I hope they fail too lol. Do we really want more of the type of people who could afford to be cloned? Of course we are not gonna see cloned Einstein, Bethoven’s, Michelagelo ( as there were poor and couldn’t afford to be cloned). We’d be more likely to see cloned Gadaffi, Murdoch and upper class fucktards the world could do well without them. lol

No intending to derail, but a lot of questions arises concerning the soul. What about birth defects- what is the cut off point of mental disability at which the human is not given a soul? Are babies bon without large portions of the brain( and not living for long after birth) given a soul? For adult who already is given a soul, what about accident where after the person abruptly changes personality? Or what about split brain patients?

Good to see you Alpha.

[Alphanumeric]

Soul enters body of fetus after 120days, RE:4th hadeeth in Arba'een an-Nawawi, B&M.

Whether or not humans can be cloned, I don't know. However, I do not doubt that somewhere in this decrepit world, in dark, sterile, cold, bleak laboratories, there are heartless and sad people attempting to bring this concept to fruition. I sincerely hope they fail miserably.

If humans are ever cloned, what will be the result? I envision a vegetative state of sorts, where the only sounds able to be made are muffled growls and tightened breaths, from bodies with no thoughts of any kind. Perhaps there will be physical wanting for food, breath, maybe even sex, but the thoughts that move the body do not exist. They will lay there, without voice, waiting to die.

I'm also concerned with attempts at reanimation.

I hope they fail too lol. Do we really want more of the type of people who could afford to be cloned? Of course we are not gonna see cloned Einstein, Bethoven’s, Michelagelo ( as there were poor and couldn’t afford to be cloned). We’d be more likely to see cloned Gadaffi, Murdoch and upper class fucktards the world could do well without them. lol

No intending to derail, but a lot of questions arises concerning the soul. What about birth defects- what is the cut off point of mental disability at which the human is not given a soul? Are babies bon without large portions of the brain( and not living for long after birth) given a soul? For adult who already is given a soul, what about accident where after the person abruptly changes personality? Or what about split brain patients?

Good to see you Alpha.

Lol! I've never even considered who would be cloned. An infinit Rothschilds dynasty? Scary. The ability to be cloned may not only be kept amongst the rich due to accessibility, but we also need to consider a monopolization on the rights of cloning. When or if they ever succeed, I'm certain there will be agroup wanting to patent the process. You know how big pharma is. Another thought is militarization of the products. Yes, I'm suggesting a clone army. Although we'll likely see android armies with basic conceptionary thought, but a clone army of products free from emotional and moral bearings and restrints, that can think and act in any situation sounds pleasing to an evil overlord, I'm sure.

No derailing perceived. The soul is complicated to discuss, what we know and understand of it is limited. I've got questions myself, about its tangibility. But on what you've asked, I've got little answers and I think you'll find it difficult to speak with someoone who would be able to answer those questions. If you do, let a dude know. Usually those questions are on or about a vegetative state after injury.

Likewise Sam.

[Samatar10]

Good point alpha.

How is Snet going so far, too bad the chatrooms sucks lol