Muqdisho = Seat of the Shah?

[gurey25]

ball park figures?

barzangis 100 BC to 200 AD
aparently they were cool with the parthians but the sasanians booted them out of oman, and attempted to invade them in africa.

himyartes..?

400 AD + check james dahls blog..

byt the time ibn battuta came 1330's it was more arabized and multicultural, its likely somalis made up some of the population and lived on the peripherals just like in harar..

The ajuran came near the time of ibn battuta..

The hawiye hiraab were subjects of the ajuraan, and the dir made up a semi priestly class of wadaads..
after they rebelled in the mid 1600's the mudulood and other found their way south..

[globetrotter2]

Dear Gurey25,
Thanks. Do you mean the somali coastal line was uninhabited before 200 AD? Concerning the so called ajuraans; I was told by people and I have also read about their dynasties; the Harar region was also ruled by a dynasty if I am not wrong.
The ajuraans were somalis.

The somali and Ethiopian history have alot in commono than many of us admit; it could be the case that present day somalis and many ethiopians share a common ancestor.

It seems that somalis never settled a town; as nomads they travelled. Later on some of them engaged in agriculture. When the coasts were settled by arabs, persians, indians and portuguese, some somalis moved into this coastal towns.

Basically, there was mobility involved and it was after various exoduses that somali tribalism came; A guess

[HippoTT]

Gurey brother you cant be serious, the ones ruling Mogadishu during its zenith were the Berberis, the ancestors of the Somalis, deriving from the name of Berbera, not refugee Arab men, mothers and children coming with only their clothes on their back. Don't fall western imperialistic version of our history. Its like saying Somalis are currently ruling parts of Yemen because they settled there. This is long before the arrival of the Ajuuraan hegemons. Somali government facilittated research in the 1980s stopped at 10 layers, each layer represent a century, and their was still plenty of layers to go, so its very likely what would become the medieval mega-city of Mogadishu was already existent long before Islam. The Shirazis were never heard off before the 19th century Kitab Al-Zanj, so its just crap. The Himyar bullshit is just typical James Dhal nonsense. The Himyarites were busy being raped by Axumites, they never extended themselves towards the Somali coast, the only part ruled by them was a port in Rhapta, which is not in modern day Somalia.

The Mogadishu name might originate from the Persian, it does not mean we can call it a Persian city, just as we can't call Persepolise a Greek city because of the name.

[globetrotter2]

Gurey brother you cant be serious, the ones ruling Mogadishu during its zenith were the Berberis, the ancestors of the Somalis, deriving from the name of Berbera, not refugee Arab men, mothers and children coming with only their clothes on their back. Don't fall western imperialistic version of our history. Its like saying Somalis are currently ruling parts of Yemen because they settled there. This is long before the arrival of the Ajuuraan hegemons. Somali government facilittated research in the 1980s stopped at 10 layers, each layer represent a century, and their was still plenty of layers to go, so its very likely what would become the medieval mega-city of Mogadishu was already existent long before Islam. The Shirazis were never heard off before the 19th century Kitab Al-Zanj, so its just crap. The Himyar bullshit is just typical James Dhal nonsense. The Himyarites were busy being raped by Axumites, they never extended themselves towards the Somali coast, the only part ruled by them was a port in Rhapta, which is not in modern day Somalia.

The Mogadishu name might originate from the Persian, it does not mean we can call it a Persian city, just as we can't call Persepolise a Greek city because of the name.

Aren't Berbers a tribe in the sahara? The true rulers of Algeria, Libya, Morroco?

[gurey25]

who are these berberis?
we do not have any information on them, but we do on the himyarites and the barzanjis,
both of these had as much influence on india and the Malayan archipelago as east africa.

Undoubtedly there were people who mached the description of somalis on the northern coasts , maybe this urban trading culture extended down to the south too? we just dont have much information...

the somalis came from the omo/tana valleys and then migrated northwards, there was a back migration after 1000 AD this time from the north to the south and this lasted till recent history..
We know that some did not go all the way north, but remained in the south, the af-maay speakers and related peoples
they could have lived in coastal towns prior to the barzangis? who knows we need more research..

Infact there is a vast lost history of our people, we used to be more sophisticated and urban in the past,
but something catastrophic maybe let us become nomads again.

there are ruins around amoud awdal , dated to between 1100AD to 1300AD of a city that could take 50,000 people this is a huge , even harar in its heydey never passed 50,000 . There are signs of previous ancient irrigation ditches and dams all over northern somalia.
our people used to be farmers and urban in the past..

[HippoTT]

Globetrotter, the region was known as Bilad al Barbar, its a very ancient name going back to BC times name Barbaroi. Its very likely that modern Berbera in old times was a very prominant power, because even Gulf of Aden was known as the Sea of Berbera. There are medieval reports of Somali troops from the land of Berbera invading parts of Yemen, while the Chinese refer to Berbera as a prosperous country consisting of four main competing cities, and many villages, with 20000 troops, and their main trade were camels and frankincense.

Gurey bro there is nothing concrete known about the Himyars or Barzanjis other than one being a kingdom in Yemen and others suppossed refugees from Iran that settled in parts of East Africa. There is no Himyarite architecture anywhere in Somalia, no cultural influences, no coins, nothing. We are bassically being deleted from our own history because of Pan-Ethiopian claims, because of Western Imperial hate, because of Qabiil. All these three influences have resulted in Somali historic figures being questioned, Historic Somali cities being attributted to non-Somalis, and us being portrayed as late-comers. Somali people were already present in modern Somalia in ancient times. There is now a shift in the origin theory favoring a North to South migration rather than migrating from Southern Ethiopia. The Somali language is only related to the other Cushitic languages due to proximity and interaction rather than a direct common origin. Also one Somali group migrating at one timeperiod doesn't mean a different Somali group didn't do that before them. Even in the 19th century new Somali groups were blazing the trails of other Somali groups in NFD, and then went beyond.

Strong archaeology needs to take place, then you will be surprised by the strong urban tradition that already existed in Somalia in BC times. Differences between high civilization and periods of low-civilization is very common around the world. Most of Europe did not reach Roman levels of sophistication until 14th century, a thousand years after that empire's collapse, so its understandable that Somali cities at their prime in the Medieval period outclass those that came in the 17th and 18th centuries when there was a slow decline in prosperity in Somali peninsula, and most of the world excluding rising Europe.

[ciyaal_warta]

Twist

samething i heard Maqcad Shah aka fadhi ku dirir

Abdihalim's point also makes sense but the term Disho used a positive came into somali for the last half century



Xamar came from th read soil of mogadishu and its surroundings or may be the word Ximyar

[James Dahl]

There is documentary evidence of Himyar's rule over the Banaadir coast from 3 sources, Somali sources (the tradition of the dynasties of Mogadishu), Roman sources (the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea) and Arab sources (Himyar chronicle) so calling it "bullshit" is just being silly.

I am not sold on the Bazrangid theory though, there isn't much evidence for it. People cite the Periplus but the Periplus SAYS that Azania was subject to Charibael (Sharahbil) of Himyar. Azania is a Greek transliteration of a name in another language, and there are two possibilities. The most likely is that it is a transliteration of "Bilad al-Zenj". When Greeks and Romans refer to a country they ad "-ia" to the end, so the country of Azan would be Azania. A Greek translator of "Bilad al-Zenj" could translate it as Azania. Another possibility is Bilad al-Ajan, which Arabs also referred to the coast of Somalia, but this is less likely as this should produce Agania in a Greek translation, though it is still possible.

[HippoTT]

There is no direct mention of Himyar rule of the Somali coast, the latter is vaguely included into the generalised term "Azania", just as Adulis(Eritrea) would eventually be included in that term but the writer does not in any part of the Periplus speak of Himyar hegemony in any of the Port cities on the Somali peninsula, only in the case of Raphta(Tanzania) and modern Socrota do we see this. If we combined this with the fact that not a single shred of Himyarite items have been found in all the BC necropolises by arcchealogists of the 70s and 80s(despite tons of Roman items), I will firmly stand by my earlier statement that its plain bullshit. There are no traditions regarding Himyar descended dynasties in Mogadishu, please stop lying, we all know your alternative version of history well enough. Its most likely that the "ever evolving term" Azania under Himyar hegemony started at Kenya all the way to Tanzania. Remember that Yemen for most of its history was situated on the Gulf of Berbera, this doesn't mean the Persian conquest extend itself to the Somali coast, just because both were "Berbera Gulf" regions. The region South of Opone did not rise to prominance until a century later of the Periplus with Essina and Sarapion becoming trading powers, neither of which are recorded as having been under any foreign ruler's suzerainty, why try to sell us the nonsense that the ancient Benadir was ruled by Himyarites?

here is an actual "qualified" person that agrees with me:

The people of the ports of "the continent of Azania" — of Kenya and Tanganyika — were "men of piratical habits, very great in stature. -- Basil Davidson

and from wikipedia:

Pliny the Elder mentions an "Azanian Sea" (N.H. 6.34) that began around the emporium of Adulis and stretched around the south coast of Africa.

The slightly later Periplus of the Erythraean Sea offers more details about Azania (chapters 15,16,18). From chapter 15 of the Periplus, Huntingford identifies Azania proper with the area south of modern day Somalia (the "Lesser and Greater Bluffs", the "Lesser and Greater Strands", and the "Seven Courses").[2] However, chapter 16 clearly describes Rhapta, as located south of the Puralean Islands at the end of the Seven Courses of Azania, as the "southernmost market of Azania".

Modern identifications of Rhapta place it on the coasts of modern-day Tanzania — indicating that Azania referred to an area perhaps identical to the later Arab Zanj. Felix A. Chami has found archaeological evidence indicating that Rhapta was probably near the mouth of the Rufiji River.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azania#Ancient_Azania


Will you man up, and delete that pathetic entry in your obscure blog, or will you continue advancing your sinister agenda?

[James Dahl]

Here let me link you to the logical fallacy you just utilized:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority

Despite what many supposed western "authorities" would like it to say, that Periplus says this:

On this bay there is a very great promontory facing the east, called Syagrus; on which is a fort for .the defense of the country, and a harbor and storehouse for the frankincense that is collected; and opposite this cape, well out at sea, there is an island, lying between it and the Cape of Spices opposite, but nearer Syagrus: it is called Dioscorida [=modern Socotra], and is very large but desert and marshy, having rivers in it and crocodiles and many snakes and great lizards, of which the flesh is eaten and the fat melted and used instead of olive oil. The island yields no fruit, neither vine nor grain. The inhabitants are few and they live on the coast toward the north, which from this side faces the continent. They are foreigners, a mixture of Arabs and Indians and Greeks, who have emigrated to carry on trade there. The island produces the true sea-tortoise, and the land-tortoise, and the white tortoise which is very numerous and preferred for its large shells; and the mountain-tortoise, which is largest of all and has the thickest shell; of which the worthless' specimens cannot be cut apart on the under-side, because they are even too hard; but those of value are cut apart and the shells made whole into caskets and small plates and cake-dishes and that sort of ware. There is also produced in this island cinnabar, that called Indian, which is collected in drops from the trees.

It happens that just as Azania is subject to Charibael and the Chief of Mapharitis, this island is subject to the King of the Frankincense Country. Trade is also carried on there by some people from Muza and by those who chance to call there on the voyage from Damirica and Barygaza; they bring in rice and wheat and Indian cloth, and a few female slaves; and they take for their exchange cargoes, a great quantity of tortoise-shell. Now the island is farmed out under the Kings and is garrisoned.

Oh but it says Mapharitis! That's not Himyar!

Directly below this place is the adjoining country of Arabia, in its length bordering a great distance on the Erythraean Sea. Different tribes inhabit the country, differing in their speech, some partially, and some altogether. The land next the sea is similarly dotted here and there with caves of the Fish-Eaters, but the country inland is peopled by rascally men speaking two languages, who live in villages and nomadic camps, by whom those sailing off the middle course are plundered, and those surviving shipwrecks are taken for slaves. And so they too are continually taken prisoners by the chiefs and kings of Arabia; and they are called Carnaites. Navigation is dangerous along this whole coast of Arabia, which is without harbors, with bad anchorages, foul, inaccessible because of breakers and rocks, and terrible in every way. Therefore we hold our course down the middle of the gulf and pass on as fast as possible by the country of Arabia until we come to the Burnt Island; directly below which there are regions of peaceful people, nomadic, pasturers of cattle, sheep and camels.

Beyond these places, in a bay at the foot of the left side of this gulf, there is a place by the shore called Muza, a market-town established by law, distant altogether from Berenice for those sailing southward, about twelve thousand stadia. And the whole place is crowded with Arab ship-owners and seafaring men, and is busy with the affairs of commerce; for they carry on a trade with the far-side coast and with Barygaza, sending their own ships there.

Three days inland from this port there is a city called Saua, in the midst of the region called Mapharitis; and there is a vassal-chief named Cholaebus who lives in that city.

But wait there's more:

Two days' sail beyond, there lies the very last market-town of the continent of Azania, which is called Rhapta; which has its name from the sewed boats already mentioned; in which there is ivory in great quantity, and tortoise-shell. Along this coast live men of piratical habits, very great in stature, and under separate chiefs for each place. The Mapharitic chief governs it under some ancient right that subjects it to the sovereignty of the state that is become first in Arabia. And the people of Muza now hold it under his authority, and send thither many large ships, using Arab captains and agents, who are familiar with the natives and intermarry with them, and who know the whole coast and understand the language.

Basically Azania was subject to Himyar, end of story. The chief of Ma'afir, a vassal of Himyar, administered Rhapta (near the Juba valley) and most of the trade went through Muza (aka Mocha).

[HippoTT]

Multiple sources have been provided clearly pointing out that the Azania referred as being under ancient Yemeni rule is the modern Kenya/Tanzania coast. Secondly the fact that you place the port known as Raphta in Modern Somalia - against scholarly convention - only proves my point that your just an amateur wannabe historian one can find on all those alternative history forums. Thirdly no evidence of any ancient Yemenite remains have ever been found anywhere in Somalia, despite Ancient Egyptian, Roman, Chinese and Persian items having been found in large quantity with the little archaelogy done, which makes this nothing more than a pipe-dream.

You have been exposed for a fraud, atleast my Somali brethren will now know the real info that's out there, and not the crap you twist and turn to form some new version of our history. My work is done, you can return to your obscure blog now.

[James Dahl]

Whatever, man