Names of oct.21 1969 Coup d'etat

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waryaa
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Re: Names of oct.21 1969 Coup d'etat

Post by waryaa »

union wrote:Democracy was too much for a nation of camel herders just out of the clutches of colonial rule. When MSB assumed the Presidency, Somalis didn't even have a written alphabet. I don't believe in military dictatorship, but in some cases they are needed stepping stones between barbarism and democratic governance.
The notion of Somalia being nothing prior to the kacanka is not true. We had a functioning and strong democratically elected government.

I just googled somalia 1963 (6 long years b4 the coup) and was taken back to this forum
Somalia breaks UK link over NFD, Britons evacuated viewtopic.php?f=18&t=311472
garbo, if kacanka was good, we wouldn't be where we r today and Mohamed Siad (AUN) woudn't die in exile. we w'd have statues and parks named after him. I am not saying MSB was evil or anything but you guys must at least acknowledge we are trying to build now what that military coup destroyed 30 yrs ago.
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Re: Names of oct.21 1969 Coup d'etat

Post by Garbo_Gedo »

waryaa wrote:
union wrote:Democracy was too much for a nation of camel herders just out of the clutches of colonial rule. When MSB assumed the Presidency, Somalis didn't even have a written alphabet. I don't believe in military dictatorship, but in some cases they are needed stepping stones between barbarism and democratic governance.
Somalia was nothing prior to the kacanka is not true. We had a functioning and strong democratically elected government.

I just googled somalia 1963 and was taken back to this forum
Somalia breaks UK link over NFD, Britons evacuated viewtopic.php?f=18&t=311472
garbo, if kacanka was good, we wouldn't be where we r today and Mohamed Siad (AUN) woudn't die in exile. we w'd have statues and parks named after him. I am not saying MSB was evil or anything but you guys must at least acknowledge we are trying to build now what that military coup destroyed 30 yrs ago.
Warya, with all due respect your argument is irrational. You're saying that Somalia had a democratic adminstration prior to the Kacaan, but the evidence tells the oppesite. Therefore, the fact (based on evidence documented) is the military coup was inevitable and necessary for a strong united and prosperity of Somali people wherever they are.

There is no doubt the kacaan did an excellent job for the first decade and half as all Somali citizens benefited from the free eduacation, free healthcare, cheap housing, jobs and infrastructural etc.

However, this prosperity, unity and success were threatened by self-proclaimed gangs. The Kacaan were then forced to deal with these individual gangs who were anti-somali unity and prosperity but unfortunately these individual gangs were supported by some misled ordinary Somalis. The Kacaan was left in difficult situation where chaos occurred and it became hard to enforce justice as some ordinary brainwashed somali people became shield for the criminal individual gangs. Therefore I think its important to understand the difficult situation the Kacaan was left in dealing in. Even today, for example in modern UK, if a Walsh/Scottish criminal gang were protected by the Welsh/Scottish people, the UK government would have been left in difficult situation whereby justice cannot be served. In the case of what happen in Somalia is that, in comparitive, the Welsh/Scottish criminal gangs overthrowing the UK government with the help mislead ordinary Welsh/Scottish people who thought these criminal gangs were right, and eventually after over two decade realising that they ruined their country. In that sense, the kacaan did nothing wrong and was only doing its duties- serving the Somali people. However, criminal gangs (aidid, a. yusuf, silanyo etc) didnt serve the Somali people- look today, each one divided Somalis and made them little seperate entities.

In conclusion, the subject of coup in general is debatable, but there's no question the Kacaan governement was serving its people, and criminal gangs aided by ordinary Somali were the cause of the chaos and the civil war which till day its fruits is tested by every somali in somalia from Saylac to Raas Caseer to Raaskabooni and the diaspora. Don't blame the parent (Kacaan governement) blame the drug-dealer kids (criminals i.e. silanyo, aidid, a.yusuf etc.) for not behaving and serving their Somali people: the parent did at the end what they could, and the kids ruined their lives and the lives of their loved ones.
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Re: Names of oct.21 1969 Coup d'etat

Post by skywalker25 »

Warya your dealing with a group of people who have a cult like mentality and cant see past what they have been forced fed from a young age. Trying to reason with these people is a waste of time. My advice to all concerned is allhmdullilah that dark period is over and inshallah lets foster in a period of mutual understanding and respect.
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Re: Names of oct.21 1969 Coup d'etat

Post by CaliBurco »

Lol@ Garbo Gedo.

Your rant deserves no response.
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Re: Names of oct.21 1969 Coup d'etat

Post by Eaglehawk »

Warya is displaying Intellectual laziness

In essence tribal society and democracy is an oxymoron and Somalia in 1960 was as democratic as afghanistan
It was the 1960s corrupt civilian government that laid the foundation of the revolutionary government, just like the absolutist regime of Louis of France and marie Antoinette laid the foundation of the French revolution.

its conventional wisdom and academically accepted position that somalis under the kacaan were better off than those in in 1960s or during the civil war, as a former diplomat in xamar noted about life under the revolutionary government; " somalis never had it so good"

somalis had the chance to improve what they thought to be a "bad government" in 1991, yet they to choose in a democratic fashion to worsen and to undermine the progress made under the revolutionary government.
once again tribal society and democracy is a oxymoron and 1991 proved once again that somalis given choice retreat to tribal reasoning at the determent of the collective interest of the nation.

the 1960s government was a post colonial italian project, there was more wealth being sucked out of somalia to italy then somalia was making in terms of trade balance

when people provide free healthcare and free education to the peasant masses is when I will take them serious, democracy as a system on paper doesn't provide free education and free health care, only a competent government and benevolent leadership does

warya this is for you
As soon as you concern yourself with the 'good' and 'bad' of your fellows, you create an opening in your heart for maliciousness to enter. Testing, competing with, and criticizing others weaken and defeat you.
Morihei Ueshiba
The pleasure we feel in criticizing robs us from being moved by very beautiful things.
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Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/keywo ... eJqpHCJ.99
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waryaa
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Re: Names of oct.21 1969 Coup d'etat

Post by waryaa »

eagle, fyi, voltage is my friend and i can sucker punch him as much as I want :P

so u guys still dnt buy the coup was wrong and illegal? I dnt buy this arguments: somalis were sheep prior the military cp; the regime regime was like messiah from God.

EDIT: looks like eagle has edited his post making the 1st paragraph of this post irrelevant...
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Re: Names of oct.21 1969 Coup d'etat

Post by X.Playa »

Since when somalis have more then 1 Brig General??? somalis always had 1 General and 1 Brig General. From 1960-1963 Daaud was the General and Caynaashe was Brig Geral, then when Daauud died Caynaashe was supposed to be promoted to General and that didn't happen his position was sold to Afweyne through back door politics , since most of these positions were alloted tribally the commanding of the army was alloted to Hawiye and Isaaq. so when Afweyne was promotrf by his Majeerteen kinsmen and Aden Cade and Cigaal sold out , Caynaashe remained a Brig General of the army , Salaad Gabayre was never a Brig General. Thats the millitary , as far as the police am not sure.
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Re: Names of oct.21 1969 Coup d'etat

Post by Eaglehawk »

waryaa wrote:eagle, fyi, voltage is my friend and i can sucker punch him as much as I want :P

so u guys still dnt buy the coup was wrong and illegal? I dnt buy your argument: neither somalis were sheep prior the military; the regime regime was like messiah from God.
I don't care what you do with voltage but don't insult our intelligence with cheap talking points

didn't the revolutionary government improved the peoples sorry backward position to a enlightened progressive position with god's mandate and help, without god there would be no improvement in the peasant life, allah send his mercy in the form of the revolutionary government, instead of being grateful, the somalis decided to go against the teachings of islam and the operational procedures of the revolutionary government by killing each other and looting other peoples private property

warya iska liberal greenpeace ba tahay saxib, you always advocate for the loser under doges that don't produce shit nor make any contribution to civilization, ha na waalin saxib anaka human rights watch theoretical reasoning kama bixi karnee :D
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Re: Names of oct.21 1969 Coup d'etat

Post by Eaglehawk »

warya here is what I removed showing your malicious intent and your nativist ideological predisposition towards this debate.
What I removed was you own words which were blow the beld like jabs at voltage

Now I didn’t care whether those jabs effected voltages but as free thinker and reasonable person I view those school girl tape jabs as display of original intent

this was removed from py post
waryaa wrote:voltage, walahi i wanted to say pls don't copy/paste some literature u've already over used in other debates.
waryaa wrote:
yes, they destroyed a fledgling democracy and it took us fifty years to have the first elections inside Somalia - thanks to the man you almost worship and his friends. They fced up the country my friend - I know u won't like it but :mrgreen:
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waryaa
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Re: Names of oct.21 1969 Coup d'etat

Post by waryaa »

eagle, what i say to voltage is none of your business :P It actually makes your argument on this topic much weaker. You can try to twist and turn the subject as u wish but somalis are now going back to 1960. That's a fact and neither of us can hide it.
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Re: Names of oct.21 1969 Coup d'etat

Post by Thuganomics »

union wrote:Democracy was too much for a nation of camel herders just out of the clutches of colonial rule. When MSB assumed the Presidency, Somalis didn't even have a written alphabet. I don't believe in military dictatorship, but in some cases they are needed stepping stones between barbarism and democratic governance.
:lol: :lol:

Democracy was too much,yet you need a period totalitarianism to reinstall democracy.Funniest shit I ever heard
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Re: Names of oct.21 1969 Coup d'etat

Post by Eaglehawk »

waryaa wrote:eagle, what i say to voltage is none of your business :P It actually makes your argument on this topic much weaker. You can try to twist and turn the subject as u wish but somalis are now going back to 1960. That's a fact and neither of us can hide it.
Since when is current federalism replication of 1960s italian askari administrations

somalia has learned from patron ship and nepotism of 1960s and the rise of islamist in somali politics is a antithesis of the 1960s secularist askaris and keep in mind somalia is a devolution process meaning unlike the 1960s, corrupt government officials won't sell office for cash

The supporters of the revolution support the current trajectory of the somali political evolution.

1960s politics made sense to italians, I don't understand why any reasonable somali would advocate for neo colonialism project and hail it as the prime example of glorious somali submissive nature, I guess warya was proud of Banca d'Italia being the de facto central bank of somalia
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Re: Names of oct.21 1969 Coup d'etat

Post by KimJongIllest »

Somalis are now ready for true democracy. They want to contribute and be part of the Democratic process. They love democracy and they want to choose their destiny.

Somalia will be back to being the shining example for Africa

God bless the Federal Republic of Somalia. God bless the Somali ethnic group. Our future is looking bright. We can only go forward from here fellow nomads
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Re: Names of oct.21 1969 Coup d'etat

Post by The`Republic »

Waryaa-

I have done enough research, both from Somalis and outside, to write a book on the conditions that necessitated the coup. If I got into describing the 60's and the conditions that necessitated the Coup I would go into pages and pages of writing her. I will say this; there are three issues involved.

1.) Was the coup Justified

2.) Did the coup leave a great legacy

3.) Where is Somalia headed.

You have confused the relationship between those three issues.

1. The coup in Somalia was justified. I provided some testimony to show Somalia was no "fledgling" democracy. Somalia was a society in every way and form not ready for independent statehood. The conditions that persisted in the country's political affairs was such that it was shocking to people who observed even African corruption. We are talking about a Somalia where people just left colonialism, where there were a very tiny group of missionary school graduates who usurped powere, where voting was considered 1,000 political parties of every sub-clan fighting for few seats, where every district in the country on average had 400% more votes than residents, where print literature and academic did not exist, where a national orthography did not exist, where the few state assets were controlled by the colonial power, where the army was clan based and fractious.

In fact, on the day of the Coup on October 21, 1969 the CIA wrote this observation...remember an upheaval constituted the assassination of Shermake which threw the country in its first civil war--put an end to by the Coup:

Image
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/54644.pdf

You hear some ignorant people say "Siad Barre" started tribal tension; the Kacaan sowed enmity. No, he did not. They are just ignorant. The Somali culture went from a desert evolved nomadic pastoralist culture where personal freedom is sacrosanct, kinship bonds are social security, and going to war for fight for scarce resources was as ordinary as drinking water. Without going through a cultural evolution, a limiting colonialism and independence was granted. The Kacaan was for its day and time a very justified and forgivable move and the response by the Somali people at the time of the Coup and for more than the half the Revolution's existence points to this. The Kacaan was the temporary obstacle to the deluge of fragmentation which unraveled Somalia.

2.) Coup did many great things such as educating the masses, standardizing an orthography, bringing Somalia to the world stage, developing the country to some extent where possible, etc; but admittedly the Coup ultimately left a negative legacy because it led to the implosion of the Somali state. I will not argue about the legacy of the coup but like I said you cannot go off of the legacy to make an indictment on the necessity of the Coup when it took place. The Coup was justified which is something you need to understand is separate to what ultimately happened at the end.

3.) Somalia is not headed back towards the 60's. If your own comparison is based on the fact neither is controlled by a military, this is somewhat applicable but that is one factor among a multitude. The Somali people are not the same, the Somali state is not the same, the Somali aspirations are not the same, the Somali history is not the same, the Somali vision is not the same, the mechanisms in place are not the same, the people in charge are not the some, the social structures that exist are not the same, the participation and involvement level of all impacted are not the same. Virtually there is no similarity, no similarity beyond the fact both are not under a "military' officially. In fact, Somalia's elections in 2012 in the midst of civil war, anarchy, statelessness was more "Democratic" then anything the 60's could have materialized. The Somalia of today is the sum of the collective experience of modern Somalia; where it wants to head is a place which is journeyed to make sure is totally different than anything before it. I agree Somalia is definitely not headed back to the Revolution but it is as much an insult to say Somalia is headed back to the 60's and only Somalis ignorant of their history will say such a thing.
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Re: Names of oct.21 1969 Coup d'etat

Post by waryaa »

rep, I see your point and what you presented here but in retrospect I think we didn't take the right path. The military regime that was followed by decades of total chaos failed us.
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