The Gersony Report on the SNM and SNA in 1988

[Eaglehawk]

grant thanks for posting such a enlightenment document


idoor wagaashe you low class peasant, have you no manners, stop all ganging up on grant who is simply posting a enlightening document

grant the snm was a erratic bunch of peasants, who didn`t understand Newton's third law of motion

For every action there is an equal and opposite re-action.

grant you are coming from a academic point of view, while these idoors are rambling emotionly about how they lost one of their alcoholic uncles to the fighting of 88, and now that alcoholic uncle is known as mujahid(holy warrior) sheik faraax

grant, the snm idoor clan used to kill their own civilians and blame it on the government, they got that tactic from Briggs' Plan whos author was Harold Rawdon Briggs during the Malayan Emergency
the idoor wanted to create "Learning to Eat Soup With a Knife" environment for their civilians, because that would put the peasant local populace against the government

the snm was activly looking to displace their own people, so that they might get new recruits and remember every displaced person was a potential new recruit and those in peace in hargeisa under the government where seen as law abiding tax paying enemies

100 years ago these idoor would be polishing your boots and carring your bagage on their bags grant, its sad to see the great anglo saxons in such a pathetic state in somalinet

[Siciid85]

*Yawns* If it isn't the usual lowly Tumaal/Boons. The exiled former government lost the right to call it "their civilians" ever since those killings occurred in Burco and
this was 1985 way before the major SNM offenses.

This incident was one of the major turning points that increased support for the SNM. When you target unarmed civilians
solely based on their clan expect support to increase which later led to the slaughter of thousands of Daroods in the north and south.

One case, involving approximately 44 persons executed, was said to
have taken place in Burao three or more years earlier, apparently in
the month of December. This case was reported separately by thirteen
interviewees, who among them provided the names of most of those
executed.

Some of the Issak refugees who reported these incidents asserted that, in
fact, in many cases there had been no judicial process; that where a process had
been conducted it was substantially flawed; that the accused were innocent; and
that some, in fact, had been sentenced to ten years in prison but had instead
been executed

[Based]

The report only highlights what has been reiterated here time and time again. Regardless of the alleged abuses committed by the government, the Ethiopian backed rebel groups were responsible for any collateral damage when they decided to turn a peaceful city into an urban war zone and use civilians as human shields. The government, as any rational government would do, responded to this existential threat by sending the armed forces to repel the invasion and protect their sovereignty. Although their tactics were unfortunate, ultimately the terrorists bear responsibility for any collateral damage when they took an entire region and its people hostage, as the report alludes to.

ps. sophomoric insults tend to generally dilute any points you were trying to make.

[Advo]

The SNM were just as guilty as the SNA for the murder of so many innocent people.

[Siciid85]

Regardless of the SNM invasion the government had no right to shell civilian populated areas using heavy artillery purposely, furthermore as the report shows clearly their target wasn't SNM
only but civilians who were crossing the border with their belongings. That is not a collateral damage but clan based systematic killings. Funny how you use " alleged" on the part of the
government but claim SNM was responsible for collateral damage, what was the SNM suppose to do watch their people get rounded up and killed based on their clan? The SNM mujahiidins had
to do what they had to do since it was Siad Bare himself who signed a deal with Mengistu to get the SNM operations from Haud to Somaliland in exchange of the Ogaden desert. Claiming collateral
damage won't make much difference considering crimes against Somalilanders was committed before the 1988 SNM major offensives which is the core incidents that led to the rise of the SNM and
the collapse of the Afweyne regime.

[skywalker25]

Listen kids the SNA was not the Marexaan national army but Somali National Army so you don't need to run to every thread about the government and defend it like your first born. You can't claim the actions of the former government for better or worse. Just try and defend why another tribe chased you to Utanga. Even with 2/3's of the Somali army in Somaliand we stud firm and never buckled, unlike you guys who deserted the papa pig and let him die in Nigeria whilst running away to Utanga..

[Based]

Once again:

"Some Issak and non-Issak interviewees in northern Somalia – as well as Issak refugees in Ethiopia – reported that as it began its attack on Hargeisa and increasingly as the battle evolved, the SNM dispersed its combatants throughout the densely populated, principally Issak residential areas of Hargeisa. This placed civilian residents in the immediate line of fire between the two sides. Some SNM combatants were said to be wearing distinct uniforms; some wore civilian clothes with a distinctive sash to identify themselves as SNM combatants. But others wore only civilian clothes or were not readily distinguishable from ordinary civilians.Some SNM combatants also were said to occupy empty houses in civilian neighborhoods which were still densely populated by noncombatants. Civilian crossfire deaths in Hargeisa may have ascended into the thousands. Both the Somali Armed Forces and the SNM were reported to have used artillery in the Hargeisa battle..."

All the highlighted sections above are war crimes under the Geneva Conventions. Using civilians as human shields to deter attacks, blending with the population and failing to clearly identify as combatants, conducting attacks from civilian areas, and indiscriminately shelling areas populated by civilians in an attempt to attack government forces all constitute grave violations of the laws of war. Coupled with their initial invasion of these once peaceful cities, it's clear that the rebels bear responsibility for any and all collateral damage in the city.

You're making the mistake of assuming this discussion is centered around the government's supposed abuse of a particular clan. I don't contest the fact that there were a few unsavory incidents that occurred, nor do I necessarily agree with the government's rather disproportionate response. This discussion is about what party bears the responsibility of allegedly 50,000 souls who lost their lives in 1988. The report (and logic) seems to agree with the idea that the responsibility is ultimately bared by rebels who forced the government's hand by invading a number of cities, who conducted attacks from residential districts, and who used the civilians of those districts as human shields to deter the government's inevitable counterattack. As an objective observer, it would seem to me that there are better ways to resist a supposedly repressive government than baiting them to bombard the civilians you claim to represent.

[Siciid85]

The report is not even sure about the collateral damage it claims it "may have". At the end of the day it is the SNA which have purposely used aircraft carelessly to bomb the city and that
caused most of the casualties in those battles. Thus the responsibility lies solely on the former government and that is why Mohamed Ali Samatar one of the generals who gave orders
is held in the USA and won't be given a free pass.

"Civilian crossfire deaths in Hargeisa may have ascended into the
thousands. Both the Somali Armed Forces and the SNM were reported to have
used artillery in the Hargeisa battle, although the more powerful artillery was
used by the Somali Armed Forces. The Somali Armed Forces also used military
aircraft to strafe and bomb residential areas in which SNM forces were
dispersed."

Listen kids the SNA was not the Marexaan national army but Somali National Army so you don't need to run to every thread about the government and defend it like your first born. You can't claim the actions of the former government for better or worse. Just try and defend why another tribe chased you to Utanga. Even with 2/3's of the Somali army in Somaliand we stud firm and never buckled, unlike you guys who deserted the papa pig and let him die in Nigeria whilst running away to Utanga..

[Based]

So..... basically you just ignored:

Once again:

"Some Issak and non-Issak interviewees in northern Somalia – as well as Issak refugees in Ethiopia – reported that as it began its attack on Hargeisa and increasingly as the battle evolved, the SNM dispersed its combatants throughout the densely populated, principally Issak residential areas of Hargeisa. This placed civilian residents in the immediate line of fire between the two sides. Some SNM combatants were said to be wearing distinct uniforms; some wore civilian clothes with a distinctive sash to identify themselves as SNM combatants. But others wore only civilian clothes or were not readily distinguishable from ordinary civilians.Some SNM combatants also were said to occupy empty houses in civilian neighborhoods which were still densely populated by noncombatants. Civilian crossfire deaths in Hargeisa may have ascended into the thousands. Both the Somali Armed Forces and the SNM were reported to have used artillery in the Hargeisa battle..."

All the highlighted sections above are war crimes under the Geneva Conventions. Using civilians as human shields to deter attacks, blending with the population and failing to clearly identify as combatants, conducting attacks from civilian areas, and indiscriminately shelling areas populated by civilians in an attempt to attack government forces all constitute grave violations of the laws of war. Coupled with their initial invasion of these once peaceful cities, it's clear that the rebels bear responsibility for any and all collateral damage in the city.

You're making the mistake of assuming this discussion is centered around the government's supposed abuse of a particular clan. I don't contest the fact that there were a few unsavory incidents that occurred, nor do I necessarily agree with the government's rather disproportionate response. This discussion is about what party bears the responsibility of allegedly 50,000 souls who lost their lives in 1988. The report (and logic) seems to agree with the idea that the responsibility is ultimately bared by rebels who forced the government's hand by invading a number of cities, who conducted attacks from residential districts, and who used the civilians of those districts as human shields to deter the government's inevitable counterattack. As an objective observer, it would seem to me that there are better ways to resist a supposedly repressive government than baiting them to bombard the civilians you claim to represent.

Ok

[luis1]

Siad Barre and SNA destroyed Hargueisa,they killed and raped a lot of innocent people in northern Somalia,the somali army became northern Somalia in a desert of death,drought and destruction.Many somalis left Somalia and went to Ethiopia because they were afraid of Siad Barre revenge.The atrocities of Siad Barre regime against his people were thousands,when he felt his end was close,he killed and tortured many somalis,he never cared the life of somali people,he only care his family,money and power and the end everybody will remember him like a butcher who shattered the hopes and lifes of somalis.He brought misery,pain and shame to Somalia and somalis.

[Based]

At least he won the Ogaden war, right Luis

[Tanker]

luis1 do you have a mobil service telling you when siyad barres name is mentioned on somalinet?

[Meyle]

Based,


Its not hard to see that you're very biased in your way of dealing with history, it seems like you're driven by your subjective thoughts boosted by this so called report rather than being impartial. We dont need to look at the atrocities, to realize that the root of the problem was the regime and without the regime there wouldn't have been any atrocities. So we can play the blame game but in reality it won't conceal the underlying causes.

[luis1]

Based:

At least he won the Ogaden war, right Luis

Just do me a favour,Can you show me Somali or Western sources which prove Siad Barre won Ogaden War?

[Turbulence]

Reading that article it appeared to me the author was actually more biased towards the SNM and then he was towards the SNA as he blamed almost all the problems on the government forces. With that said the SNM were clearly criminals and were not just fighting the government. None of the people it killed in these refugee camps were armed combatants. They were killed simply because they did not belong to the clan of the rebels.

Beginning about May 30 and continuing through the balance of 1988, the
SNM conducted dozens of attacks against United Nations refugee camps in
which it is conservatively estimated that at least four hundred unarmed civilian
refugees were killed. About 60% of those reported killed were men, including
elderly men, and about 40% were women and children. The sixty-five United
Nations refugee camp residents – which included ten who resided in camps
which were not attacked – reported 241 killings in SNM attacks, an average of
3.7 killings each.

luis1 do you have a mobil service telling you when siyad barres name is mentioned on somalinet?

Or the Ogaden war.