Greatest men in the earth and the sky

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Re: Greatest men in the earth and the sky

Post by eninn »

The Da Vinci Code controversy – It’s everywhere! Dan Brown's book claims Jesus in not divine or God, and the gospels as we know them, have been changed, and after Jesus’ stay here on earth, men raised his status to the level of God. Could any of this be true?

Ancient secrets of the Church, hidden for centuries have actually been revealed and published in books prior to the fictional writings of Brown in the “Da Vinci Code”. Baigent and Leigh have produced other books from researcher’s point of view over the last two decades, including “Dead Sea Scrolls Deception”, “Holy Blood, Holy Grail”, and “Messianic Legacy.” These books were the talk of the religious communities when they came out in the early 90's, and certainly they have fueled an ongoing interest into just exactly who was this man Jesus, what was his message and what happened to him?
Islam claims to “break the code” so to speak, over 1,400 years ago. The answer, according to Muslim scholars has been in the Quran for over fourteen hundred years

Some may be surprised to learn, Muslims believe in the miracle birth and other miracles associated with Jesus. They actually consider him as the “Messiah” and they even say, “peace be upon him” when mentioning his name. However, they are quick to negate any connection between God and Jesus as a partnership or God-head, and they rule out the notion of God having any son (or daughter for that matter).
Here is how Muslim scholars present their understanding and “break the code”:
How Muslim scholars “broke the code”

Creation itself tells us there is a creator and from the beginning of time – Allah, (the One God in Arabic) alone is to be worshiped. This is clear teaching throughout the Old Testament (Torah), the scriptures that Jesus himself affirmed as a revelation of God. God is one not one of three; for example: ‘He is God; there is no other besides Him’. (Deuteronomy 4:35). The same is mentioned in the book of Mark in the New Testament, chapter 12, verse 29, when Jesus, peace be upon him, had been asked about the Greatest Commandment he replied,
“To know, O Israel, the Lord your God is One Lord; and you have to love Him with all your heart and all your mind and all your strength.”

According to the oldest and most authentic copies of manuscripts and scrolls available throughout the centuries, Jesus, peace be upon him, never claimed to be God, or the creator, or the One to pray to, nor did he tell his followers to revere him as God. These notions appear on the lips of others who came along decades and even centuries later.
While Jesus was on earth he did not claim to be the creator or ask us to revere him as God. His miraculous birth is a sign of his prophethood:
“Verily, the likeness of Jesus before God, is the likeness of Adam. He (God) created him from dust and said “Be!” and he was.” (Quran 3:59)

Like all the great and noble prophets of God such as Adam, Abraham, Moses, Isaac and David, Jesus came with one message: Worship, love, obey and submit to the one true God, the creator of everything and do not worship anything besides Him.
Throughout history, people have taken to worship things or people alongside God, or just worshiping something else like power, status or money. Even the names of religions seem have more to do with the creation and less or nothing to do with the Creator. For example: Buddhism – Buddha (the name of a man), Confucianism – Confucius (the name of a man), Hinduism – Hind (the name of an area), Judaism – Judah (the name of a tribe) and Christianity – Christ (the name of a great prophet).

Islam is different. Islam is a word derived from the verb aslama, and it carries the meaning of “surrender”, “submission”, “obedience”, “sincerity” and “peace” between one and Almighty God and not to any human or anything within creation. Anyone who practices Islam submits to and worships Allah, alone without any partners of any kind.
The Quran states:

“There is only One God then have reverence for Me and fear Me (and Me alone). To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and on earth, and to Him is duty due always: then will ye fear other than God?” (Quran 16:51-52)
Isn’t it time you join Jesus, the son of Mary, along with all of the other Prophets of God and practice the “Submission to the Will of God” (Islam)?
Or simply put: “Worship the Creator - and not His Creations!”
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Re: Greatest men in the earth and the sky

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Overt biblical indoctrination??? Anyone else see right through this threads agenda???
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Re: Greatest men in the earth and the sky

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Re: Greatest men in the earth and the sky

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\\\\\\\\\\

Jesus is a figure who is loved and revered by billions of people the world over. Yet there is so much confusion surrounding the status of this colossal personality. Muslims and Christians both hold Jesus in high regard but view him in very different ways.

The questions raised in this article aim to get to the heart of the issues surrounding Jesus: Is Jesus God? Or was he sent by God? Who was the real historical Jesus?

Some ambiguous verses of the Bible can be applied erroneously to show that Jesus is in some way divine. But if we look at the clear, direct verses of the Bible, we see again and again that Jesus is being referred to as an extraordinary human being and nothing more. What emerges, when we consider the historical and logical facts about Jesus’ life, is conclusive proof not only that Jesus cannot be God, but that he never claimed to be either.

What follows are five lines of reasoning which clarify this subject for us through the Bible itself and thereby allow us to discover the real Jesus.
1. Jesus Never Calls Himself God

The Bible (in spite of being changed and adulterated over time) contains many verses in which Jesus speaks of God as a separate person to himself. Here are just a few of them:

When a man addressed Jesus as “Good Teacher”, he replied “Why do you call me good? No one is good except the one God.’’ [Mark 10:18]

In another instance he says: “I can’t do anything by myself. Whatever I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just. I don’t seek my own will but the will of the one who sent me.” [John 5:30]

Jesus speaks of God as a separate being to himself: I’m going up to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God. [John 20:17]
In this verse he affirms that he was sent by God: This is eternal life: to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you sent. [John 17:3]

If Jesus was God he would have told people to worship him, but he did the opposite and disapproved anyone worshipping him: And in vain they worship Me [Matthew 15:9]

If Jesus claimed to be God than there should be hundreds of verses in the Bible which would have mentioned it. But there is not a single verse in the entire Bible in which Jesus says I am God, worship me.
2. Jesus as Son and Lord?

Jesus is sometimes referred to as ‘Lord’ in the Bible and at other times as ‘Son of God’. God is called the ‘Father’, so putting these names together it could be claimed that Jesus is the son of God. But if we look at each of these titles in context we will find that they are symbolic and not to be taken literally.

‘Son of God’ is a term used in ancient Hebrew for a righteous person. God calls Israel his ‘son’: This is what the LORD says: Israel is my oldest son.[Exodus 4:22]. Also, David is called the ‘Son of God’: The LORD has said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.’ [Psalm 2:7]. In fact anyone who is righteous is referred to as God’s ‘son’: All who are led by God’s Spirit are God’s sons and daughters. [Romans 8:14].

In the same way, when the word ‘Father’ is used to refer to God it shouldn’t be taken literally. Instead it’s a way of saying God is the creator, sustainer, cherisher etc. There are many verses for us to understand this symbolic meaning of the word ‘Father’, for example: one God and Father of all. [Ephesians 4:6].

Jesus is sometimes called ‘Lord’ by the disciples. ‘Lord’ is a term used for God and also for people who are held in high esteem. There are many examples of the word ‘Lord’ being used for people in the Bible: So they (Joseph’s brothers) went up to Joseph’s steward and spoke to him at the entrance to the house. “We beg your pardon, our lord,” they said. [Genesis 43:19-20]. Also, in other parts of the Bible, Jesus is even called a ‘servant’ of God by the disciples: the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. [Acts 3:13]. This clearly shows that when ‘Lord’ is used to refer to Jesus, it is a title of respect not of divinity.
3. The Nature of Jesus

The nature of Jesus was totally different to that of God. There are many parts of the Bible that highlight this difference in nature:

God is All-Knowing but Jesus by his own admission was not All-Knowing. This can be seen in the following passage when Jesus says “But nobody knows when that day or hour will come, not the heavenly angels and not the Son. Only the Father knows.” [Matthew 24:36]

God is independent and he doesn’t need sleep, food or water. Jesus however ate, drank, slept and depended on God: As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father. [John 6:57]. Another sign of Jesus’ dependence on God is that he prayed to God: Going a little farther, he (Jesus) fell with his face to the ground and prayed [Matthew 26:39]. This shows that Jesus himself sought help from God. God, being the one who answers prayers does not need to pray to anyone. Also, Jesus said: I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than me. [John 14:28].

The Bible is clear that God is unseen and is not a man: for no one may see me and live. [Exodus 33:20], God is not a man [Numbers 23:19]. Jesus on the other hand was a man who was seen by thousands of people, so he could not be God. Furthermore, the Bible makes it clear that God is too great to be inside his creation: But how could God possibly live on earth with people? If heaven, even the highest heaven, can’t contain you [2 Chronicles 6:18]. According to this verse Jesus cannot be God living on the earth.

Also the Bible calls Jesus a Prophet [Matthew 21:10-11], so how could Jesus be God and be God’s Prophet at the same time? That wouldn’t make sense.

Additionally the Bible informs us that God does not change: I the Lord do not change. [Malachi 3:6:]. Jesus however went through many changes in his life such as age, height, weight etc.

These are just some of the proofs within the Bible, which make it clear that the nature of Jesus and God is completely different. Some people may claim that Jesus had both a human and a divine nature. This is a claim that Jesus never made, and is in clear contradiction to the Bible which maintains that God has one nature.
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Re: Greatest men in the earth and the sky

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Re: Greatest men in the earth and the sky

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Of all the Christian mysteries, none rank as highly as the concept of Christ’s crucifixion and atoning sacrifice. In fact, Christians base their salvation on this one tenet of faith. And if it really happened, shouldn’t we all?

If it really happened, that is.

Now, I don’t know about you, but the concept of Jesus Christ having atoned for the sins of mankind sounds pretty good to me. And shouldn’t it? I mean, if we can trust that someone else atoned for all of our sins, and we can go to heaven on that concept alone, shouldn’t we instantly close on that deal?

If it really happened, that is.

So let’s check this out. We’re told Jesus Christ was crucified. But then again, we’re told a lot of things that later prove to be doubtful or even untrue, so it would be reassuring if we could verify the fact.

So let’s ask the witnesses. Let’s ask the gospel authors.

Umm, one problem. We don’t know who the authors were. This is a less popular Christian mystery (i.e., waaay less popular) – the fact that all four gospels of the New Testament are anonymous.[1] Nobody knows who wrote them. Graham Stanton tells us, “The gospels, unlike most Graeco-Roman writings, are anonymous. The familiar headings which give the name of an author (‘The Gospel according to . . .’) were not part of the original manuscripts, for they were added only early in the second century.”[2]

Added in the second century? By whom? Believe it or not, that is anonymous as well.

But let’s forget all that. After all, the four gospels are part of the Bible, so we must respect them as scripture, right?

Right?

Well, maybe not. After all, The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible states, “It is safe to say that there is not one sentence in the NT in which the MS [manuscript] tradition is wholly uniform.”[3] Add to that Bart D. Ehrman’s now famous words, “Possibly it is easiest to put the matter in comparative terms: there are more differences in our manuscripts than there are words in the New Testament.”[4]

Whoa. Hard to imagine. On one hand, we have Matthew, Mark, Luke and John telling us . . . oh, excuse me. I meant to say, we have Anonymous, Anonymous, Anonymous and Anonymous telling us . . . well, what? What do they tell us? That they can’t even agree on what Jesus wore, drank, did or said? After all, Matthew 27:28 tells us the Roman soldiers dressed Jesus with a scarlet robe. John 19:2 says it was purple. Matthew 27:34 says the Romans gave Jesus sour wine mingled with gall. Mark 15:23 says it was mixed with myrrh. Mark 15:25 tells us Jesus was crucified before the third hour, but John 19:14–15 says it was “about the sixth hour.” Luke 23:46 says Jesus’ last words were “Father, into Your hands I commit my spirit,” but John 19:30: says they were “It is finished!”

Now, wait a minute. Jesus’ righteous followers would have hung on his every word. On the other hand, Mark 14:50 tells us that all the disciples deserted Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane. But okay, some people – not disciples, I guess, but some people (anonymous, of course) – hung on his every word, hoping for some parting words of wisdom, and they heard . . . different things?

Believe it or not, after this point, the gospel records become even more inconsistent.

Following the alleged resurrection, we hardly find a single issue the four gospels (Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, and John 20) agree upon. For example:

Who went to the tomb?

Matthew: “Mary Magdalene and the other Mary”

Mark: “Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome”

Luke: “The women who had come with him from Galilee” and “certain other women”

John: “Mary Magdalene”

Why did they go to the tomb?

Matthew: “To see the tomb”

Mark: They “brought spices, that they might come and anoint him”

Luke: They “brought spices”

John: no reason given

Was there an earthquake (something nobody in the vicinity would be likely to either miss or forget)?

Matthew: Yes

Mark: no mention

Luke: no mention

John: no mention

Did an angel descend? (I mean, come on, guys – an angel? Are we to believe that three of you somehow missed this part?)

Matthew: Yes

Mark: no mention

Luke: no mention

John: no mention

Who rolled back the stone?

Matthew: The angel (the one the other three anonymouses – now, let’s see, would that be “anonymouses” or “anonymice”? – didn’t see)

Mark: unknown

Luke: unknown

John: unknown

Who was at the tomb?

Matthew: “an angel”

Mark: “a young man”

Luke: “two men”

John: “two angels”

Where were they?

Matthew: The angel was sitting on the stone, outside the tomb.

Mark: The young man was in the tomb, “sitting on the right side.”

Luke: The two men were inside the tomb, standing beside them.

John: The two angels were “sitting, one at the head and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.”

By whom and where was Jesus first seen?

Matthew: Mary Magdalene and the “other Mary,” on the road to tell the disciples.

Mark: Mary Magdalene only, no mention where.

Luke: Two of the disciples, en route to “a village called Emmaus, which was about seven miles from Jerusalem.”

John: Mary Magdalene, outside the tomb.

So where does this leave us, if not wondering whose idea of scripture this is?




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Re: Greatest men in the earth and the sky

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Re: Greatest men in the earth and the sky

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Jesus in the Quran holds one of the highest statures amongst the Prophets. Unlike other Prophets who performed miracles, Jesus himself was a miracle, as he was born of a virgin mother, and God describes him and his mother Mary as such:
“…and We made her (Mary) and her son (Jesus) a sign for the worlds.” (Quran 21:91)
Nonetheless, in the Quran, Jesus is described as having many miracles not bestowed upon other prophets. God says:
“And We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear miracles” (Quran 2:87)
The following is a brief description of the miracles performed by Jesus mentioned in the Quran.

1. A Table Laden with Food
In the fifth chapter of the Quran, “The Table Laden with Food” – named after this miracle of Jesus, God narrates how the disciples of Jesus requested him to ask God to send down a table laden with food, and for it to be a special day of commemoration for them in the future.
“When the disciples said: O Jesus, son of Mary! Is your Lord able to send down for us a table spread with food from heaven? He said: Observe your duty to God, if ye are true believers. They said: We desire to eat of it and our hearts be at rest, and that We may know that you have spoken truth to us, and that We may be witnesses thereof. Jesus, son of Mary, said: 'O God, our Lord, send down for us a Table laden with food out of heaven, that shall be for us a recurring festival, the first and last of us, and a miracle from You. And provide us our sustenance, for You are the best of providers!” (Quran 5:112-114)
Since the occasion was to be “for us a recurring festival,” it is likely the Last Supper,[1] also called the Lord's Supper, Breaking of Bread, Eucharist, or Communion. The Eucharist has always been at the center of Christian worship. Encyclopedia Britannica says:
“Eucharist is a Christian sacrament commemorating the action of Jesus at his Last Supper with his disciples … The letters of Paul and the Acts of the Apostles make it clear that early Christianity believed that this institution included a mandate to continue the celebration… The Eucharist has formed a central rite of Christian worship.”[2]


2. While Still in the Cradle
One of the miracles mentioned in the Quran, although not mentioned in the Bible, is that fact that Jesus, while still in the cradle, spoke out to protect his mother Mary from any accusations people may have placed on her due to having a child without a father. When she was approached about this strange incident after her childbirth, Mary merely pointed to Jesus, and he miraculously spoke, just as God had promised her upon annunciation.
“He shall speak to people while still in the cradle, and in manhood, and he shall be from the righteous.” (Quran 3:46)
Jesus said to the people:
“I am indeed a slave of God. He has given me the Book and made me a Prophet, and He has made me blessed wherever I may be. And He has enjoined upon me prayers, and to pay the alms, as long as I live and (He has made me) kind to my mother, and He has not made me insolent, unblessed. And may Peace be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and on the Day I shall be raised to life.” (Quran 19:30-33)



3. And It Becomes a Bird
God mentions a miracle given to none other in the Quran but Jesus, one which is quite parallel to how God himself created Adam. This miracle was one which none can argue its greatness. God mentions in the Quran that Jesus says:
“I create for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with God’s permission.” (Quran 3:49)
This miracle is not found in the New Testament, but it is found in the non-canonical ‘Infancy Gospel of Thomas,’ “When this boy, Jesus, was five years old, he was playing at the ford of a rushing stream… he then made soft clay and shaped it into twelve sparrows… but Jesus simply clapped his hands and shouted to the sparrows: “Be off, fly away, and remember me, you who are now alive!” And the sparrows took off and flew away noisily.” (Infancy Gospel of Thomas:2)


4. Healing the Blind and the Leper
Similar to the New Testament[3], The Quran also mentions Jesus to a have healed the blind and lepers.
“I also heal the blind and the leper.” (Quran 3:49)
The Jews during the time of Jesus were quite advanced in the science of medicine and were quite proud of their achievements. For this reason, miracles of this nature were given by God to Jesus, ones which the Jews could well understand that no force in nature could perform its like.


5. The Resurrection of the Dead
“…and I bring to life the dead, by the permission of God.” (Quran 3:49)
This, like the creation of a bird, was a miracle of incomparable nature, one which should have caused the Jews to believe in the prophethood of Jesus without doubt. In the New Testament, we read three cases where Jesus brought the dead back to life by God’s permission - the daughter of Jairus (Matt 9:18, 23; Mark 5:22, 35; Luke 8:40, 49), the widow's son at Nain (Luke 7:11), and Lazarus (John 11:43).


6. The Provisions of Today and Tomorrow
Jesus was given the miracle of knowing what people had just eaten, as well as what they had in store for the coming days. God says.
“I inform you too of what things you eat, and what you store up in your houses. Surely in that is a sign for you, if you are believers.” (Quran 3:49)
A Demonstration of Truth
Similar to other prophets, Jesus performed miracles to convince skeptics of his truthfulness, not to demonstrate his divinity. The Quran says:
“Surely in that is a sign for you, if you are believers.” (Quran 3:49)
These miracles were performed only by the Will of God, had he not willed them to occur, they could never come to be. God explicitly states this in the Quran, saying that they were:
“…by the permission of God” (Quran 3:49; 5:10)


Although Muslims can not confirm it, the Bible, through certain narrations, states that Jesus at times failed to perform miracles. Once when Jesus tried to heal a blind man, he was not healed after the first attempt, and Jesus had to try a second time (Mark 8: 22-26). In another instance, “He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them.”(Mark 6:5)
The fact remains that indeed it was not through his own will that Jesus or any other prophet performed miracles. Rather, they were performed only by Will of God Almighty - a fact also explicitly stated in the Bible:
“A man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through him in your midst.” (Acts 2:22
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Re: Greatest men in the earth and the sky

Post by OjOO »

Soft approached of christian missionary propaganda. just like when they tried to use Allah instead of lord or god.

Even they tried to use somaal language. It didn't work so far.
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Re: Greatest men in the earth and the sky

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OjOO wrote:Soft approached of christian missionary propaganda. just like when they tried to use Allah instead of lord or god.

Even they tried to use somaal language. It didn't work so far.

Why

Increase the numbers of adherents of Islam

Of not less
Did not return any person on Islam

Christians Scientists
And players and famous of Hollywood stars
The world's rich

And Yusuf Estes


Sister's Wife of Tony Blair
converted to Islam?

Kaka (Brazil) - Ribeirah (France)


-So when he discovers that the real Holy Qur'an
And discover the greatness and mercy of Islam
Makes sure that the attempts to distort Islam, a liar and deceiver
calm down and use your mind in the research and understanding
And prepare to convert to Islam constantly increasing







I hope that you be honest with yourself before others
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Re: Greatest men in the earth and the sky

Post by AhlulbaytSoldier »

OjOO wrote:Soft approached of christian missionary propaganda. just like when they tried to use Allah instead of lord or god.

Even they tried to use somaal language. It didn't work so far.

All i see is islamic beliefs on Jesus son of mary(PBUH and his mother) displayed here.
So where is this christian missionary propaganda you are talking about?
Is Jesus pbuh not regarded as one of the 5 greatest messengers chosen by Allah swt?
Did Allah swt not bless Isa pbuh and his mom?
Did Allah swt not take him in the heaven alive(unlike what qadianis claim)?
Did the prophet PBUH not say Isa aleyhi salaam will return and not bring new message, but he will be part of the ummah of prophet Muhammad pbuh?


What the hell are you talking?


[The Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, remember My favor upon you and upon your mother when I supported you with the Pure Spirit and you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and [remember] when I taught you writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and when you designed from clay [what was] like the form of a bird with My permission, then you breathed into it, and it became a bird with My permission; and you healed the blind and the leper with My permission; and when you brought forth the dead with My permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from [killing] you when you came to them with clear proofs and those who disbelieved among them said, "This is not but obvious magic.".'
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Re: Greatest men in the earth and the sky

Post by eninn »

AhlulbaytSoldier wrote:
OjOO wrote:Soft approached of christian missionary propaganda. just like when they tried to use Allah instead of lord or god.

Even they tried to use somaal language. It didn't work so far.

All i see is islamic beliefs on Jesus son of mary(PBUH and his mother) displayed here.
So where is this christian missionary propaganda you are talking about?
Is Jesus pbuh not regarded as one of the 5 greatest messengers chosen by Allah swt?
Did Allah swt not bless Isa pbuh and his mom?
Did Allah swt not take him in the heaven alive(unlike what qadianis claim)?
Did the prophet PBUH not say Isa aleyhi salaam will return and not bring new message, but he will be part of the ummah of prophet Muhammad pbuh?


What the hell are you talking?


[The Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, remember My favor upon you and upon your mother when I supported you with the Pure Spirit and you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and [remember] when I taught you writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and when you designed from clay [what was] like the form of a bird with My permission, then you breathed into it, and it became a bird with My permission; and you healed the blind and the leper with My permission; and when you brought forth the dead with My permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from [killing] you when you came to them with clear proofs and those who disbelieved among them said, "This is not but obvious magic.".'



I am a Muslim

He explained to the people the truth of Christ of the Bible and the Koran
Evidence and proofs

Some associate Jesus with divinity because he performed miracles. Many Unitarian Christians and all Muslims point out that Jesus did indeed perform miracles, but by the will of God and not through any divine powers of his own. To repeat the quote of Acts 2:22:
“Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves also know” (italics mine)
In conformity with both the Bible and Holy Quran, Muslims contend that the miracles of Jesus were performed by the power of God. As the Holy Quran states,

Then will Allah say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favor to you and to your mother. Behold! I strengthened you with the holy spirit, so that you spoke to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught you the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel. And behold! You made out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and you breathed into it, and it became a bird by My leave, and you healed those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! You brought forth the dead by My leave. (Quran 5:110)

The Islamic perspective is that miracles can be God-given signs of prophethood, but don’t imply divinity. Hadith (narrations of the words, deeds, appearance, and tacit approvals of Muhammad) relate numerous miracles of Muhammad with greater historical authenticity than found in biblical manuscripts. While the science of hadith authentication is regarded as a wonder of historical recordkeeping, the Bible doesn’t satisfy many of the most basic standards of historical accuracy.* For example, the authors of most of the books of the Bible (gospels included) are unknown, the time period in which they were written is ill-defined, and the source of much of the information is ambiguous.

These issues will be discussed later at greater length, but just as a small teaser, let’s examine the story of Judas’ betrayal of Jesus to the chief priests. Who was the author, and why should we believe him? Was he present at the betrayal? If not, then where did he get his information? And if so, and he didn’t alert Jesus, then isn’t he a partner to the crime? And what kind of a gospel author would that be?
Sounds silly? Maybe. But then again, isn’t it sillier to trust salvation to a compilation of gospels and letters of unknown origin and authorship?

The Jesus Seminar is perhaps one of the most objective and sincere attempts of an ecumenical council of Christian scholars to determine the authenticity of the recorded acts and sayings of Jesus. Yet their methodology involves casting votes! Two thousand years after the ministry of Jesus, nearly two hundred scholars are formulating a collective Christian opinion regarding the reliability of the quotes and historical reports of Jesus by casting colored beads. For example, as regards the reported words of Jesus, the definitions of the bead colors are as follows:
Red—Jesus said it or something very close to it. Pink—Jesus probably said something like it, although his words have suffered in transmission.


Gray—these are not his words, but the ideas are close to his own. Black—Jesus did not say it; the words represent the Christian community or a later point of view.[1]
Other Christian committees have attempted to authenticate Bible texts by similar methodologies. The editors of the United Bible Societies’ The Greek New Testament: Second Edition are alphabetically minded:
By means of the letters A, B, C, and D, enclosed within “braces” {} at the beginning of each set of textual variants the Committee has sought to indicate the relative degree of certainty, arrived at the basis of internal considerations as well as of external evidence, for the reading adopted as the text.

The letter A signifies that the text is virtually certain, while B indicates that there is some degree of doubt. The letter C means that there is a considerable degree of doubt whether the text of the apparatus contains the superior reading, while D shows that there is a very high degree of doubt concerning the reading selected for the text.[2]
Bruce M. Metzger describes using similar methodology in his A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament. “In fact,” he writes, “among the {D} decisions sometimes none of the variant readings commended itself as original, and therefore the only recourse was to print the least unsatisfactory reading.”[3]
Now doesn’t that give us a warm, secure feeling in trusting the Bible with the salvation of mankind?
But I digress. The point is that these ranking systems are probably about the best possible, given the limitations of the biblical record, but what a sad comment that is! Compared to the exquisitely refined system of hadith authentication, these colored-bead and A-B-C-D classification systems are a bit wanting, to say the least.
The historical record keeping is relevant, for when a person hears a story—even a credible story at that—the first question is usually “Where did you hear that?” Any reasonable set of historical standards includes the identification and verification of sources. The Holy Quran and many hadith traditions satisfy the highest degrees of authentication. But the majority of Bible verses don’t.*


How does this relate to the issue at hand? Simple. The miracles that occurred through Muhammad are no less numerous or impressive than those of Jesus, and are witnessed by an unimpeachable historical record that puts all others of similar time period to shame. So just as the miracles of Moses, Elisha, and Muhammad don’t imply divinity, neither do those of Jesus.
Let’s look at a few examples:
1. Jesus fed thousands with a few fish and loaves of bread. But Elisha fed a hundred people with twenty barley loaves and a few ears of corn (2 Kings 4:44); granted a widow such an abundant flow of oil from a jar that she was able to pay off her debts, save her sons from slavery, and live on the profits (2 Kings 4:1-7); and gave increase to a handful of flour and spot of oil such that he, a widow and her son had enough to eat for many days, after which “The bin of flour was not used up, nor did the jar of oil run dry …” (1 Kings 17:10-16). So what does that make Elisha? The historical record of Muhammad feeding the masses with a handful of dates on one occasion, a pot of milk on another, and enough meat for a small party on still another are equally miraculous. Likewise are the stories of his watering the masses (1,500 people on one occasion) from a single bowl of water. Yet no Muslim claims divinity for Muhammad.

2. Jesus healed the lepers. Likewise, Elisha healed Naaman (2 Kings 5:7-14). For that matter, the disciples were bidden to such service in Matthew 10:8. What does that make them?
3. Jesus cured a blind man. Elisha not only struck his enemies blind, but restored vision to the blind through prayer (2 Kings 6:17-20). Muhammad reportedly cured blindness through prayer as well.
4. Jesus raised the dead. Once again, Elisha beat him to it, having raised two children from the dead (1 Kings 17:22 and 2 Kings 4:34). Furthermore, the disciples were bidden to raise the dead (Matthew 10:8). So once again, what does that make them?
5. Jesus walked on water. Had he been around in the time of Moses, he wouldn’t have had to.

6. Jesus cast out devils. So did his disciples (Matthew 10:8). So did the sons of the Pharisees (Matthew 12:27 and Luke 11:19). So, for that matter, do the wayward followers whom Jesus will reportedly disown (see Matthew 7:22)—a disconcerting thought considering how many priests and ministers perform such theatrics, even if real.
So if we seek evidence of Jesus being divine, we are forced to look beyond miracles.

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Re: Greatest men in the earth and the sky

Post by eninn »

The practicality of Islamic Law is one particular aspect that truly impressed me at that time, coming, again, from my Christian background. It is a great blessing that in Islam one finds detailed teachings that result in their desired goals while, at the same time, being extremely practical and consistent with human nature. The lack of such teachings is one of the greatest dilemmas faced by Christianity. For example, with respect to societal cohesion and interaction, the greatest teachings found in the New Testament are what are known as “the hard sayings” of Jesus. They are as follows:

“Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect” (Matthew 5:38-48).

Christian scholars themselves are perplexed. How are such obviously impossible or impractical teachings to be applied? Just one example of a discussion of these words will suffice to show how perplexing they are to those who staunchly believe in them:

[For interpreting these words, t]he model proposed by Joachim Jeremias is simple, representative, and of continuing influence. According to this model, the Sermon usually is seen in one of three ways: (1) as a perfectionist code, fully in line with the legalism of rabbinic Judaism; (2) as an impossible ideal, meant to drive the believer first to desperation, and then to trust in God's mercy; or (3) as an ‘interim ethic’ meant for what was expected to be a brief period of waiting in the end time, and which is now obsolete. Jeremias adds his own fourth thesis: The Sermon is an indicative depiction of incipient life in the kingdom of God, which presupposes as its condition of possibility the experience of conversion. More complex or comprehensive schematizations have been offered, but most major interpreters can be understood in relation to the options posed by Jeremias.[1]

In Islam, there are no such dilemmas. The teachings are easy, flexible, practical and completely suited to everyday life, even for a new Muslim living in a completely non-Islamic environment, such as I was. The famed author James A. Michener also noted and appreciated this aspect of Islam. In one of the earliest writings that I had read about Islam, entitled “Islam—the Misunderstood Religion,” Michener wrote,

The Koran is remarkably down-to-earth in its discussion of the good life. In one memorable passage it directs: ‘When ye deal with each other in transactions involving future obligations reduce them to writing… and get two witnesses…’ It is this combination of dedication to one God, plus practical instruction, that makes the Koran unique.[2

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Re: Greatest men in the earth and the sky

Post by salool »

hyperactive wrote:greatest man walked on the earth is prophet mohammed asw.

Indeed.And after him the one i admire after our prophet csw..is my father :heart:
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Re: Greatest men in the earth and the sky

Post by eninn »

salool wrote:
hyperactive wrote:greatest man walked on the earth is prophet mohammed asw.

Indeed.And after him the one i admire after our prophet csw..is my father :heart:
gazak allah khier

Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him
The best people in the past and present
Is better than walking with his feet on the ground

God says in the Holy Qur'an
Praise of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him

(159) So by mercy from Allah, [O Muammad], you were lenient with them. And if you had been rude [in speech] and harsh in heart, they would have disbanded from about you. So pardon them and ask forgiveness for them and consult them in the matter. And when you have decided, then rely upon Allah. Indeed, Allah loves those who rely [upon Him].

(4) And indeed, you are of a great moral character

- Not steal - did not commit adultery - and never did not lie he called infidels and the polytheists (Sadiq the secretary)
- Maintain the trust and give it back to the owners of the infidels
Despite the attempt to kill him several times (on migration from Mecca to Medina)
- Has not seen false speech and never warned that a final warning
- An amnesty for all those who offended him (on the opening of Mecca)
- Very high morals
- Rahim in the treatment of non-Muslims and to provide advice and guidance to them
Although bad words from them and beyond the literature
- Did not drink the wine in his life
- Did not worship an idol ever
- Have not seen anything taboo

Narrated Al-Mughira bin Shu'ba (may Allah be pleased with him):
The Prophet (peace be upon him) used to pray so much that his feet used to become edematous or swollen, and when he was asked as to why he prays so much, he would say,
"Shall I not be a thankful slave (to Allah)?"

Bukhari Volume 8, Book 76, Number 478
Narrated Abu Huraira (may Allah be pleased with him
I heard Allah's Apostle saying.
"By Allah! I ask for forgiveness from Allah and turn to Him in repentance more than seventy times a day.

Bukhari Volume 8, Book 75, Number 319

Narrated Abu Huraira (may Allah be pleased with him):
Allah's Apostle said:

For every prophet there is one (special invocation (that will not be rejected) with which he appeals (to Allah)
and I want to keep such an invocation for interceding
for my followers in the Hereafter.

Bukhari Volume 8, Book 75, Number 317e


Narrated Abu Huraira (may Allah be pleased with him):
The Prophet (peace be upon him) said,
"There was no prophet among the prophets but was given miracles because of which people had security or had belief, but what I was given was the Divine Inspiration which Allah revealed to me. So I hope that my followers will be more than those of any other prophet on the Day of Resurrection. "
Volume 9, Book 92, Number 379

- Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him
And a role model, just do not like everyone
In religion and worship, education, work, The moral and material transactions

-Whatever I wrote would not be able to reach an appropriate description of him
God says in the Holy Qur'an

(28) It is He who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion. And sufficient is Allah as Witness

(21) There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and [who] remembers Allah often



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