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JaalleMarx wrote:Muraxoow, you could engage in charitable endeavours without belonging to a clan.

True, but I was speaking in light of Somali's situation. In Life You have to work with contemporary realities for the time You live in. Clan in Somalia has been around for probably thousands of years. To try to eliminate clans altogether is not realistic and may not even be necessary. If its used properly it is harmless.

Murax wrote:

JaalleMarx wrote:Muraxoow, you could engage in charitable endeavours without belonging to a clan.

True, but I was speaking in light of Somali's situation. In Life You have to work with contemporary realities for the time You live in. Clan in Somalia has been around for probably thousands of years. To try to eliminate clans altogether is not realistic and may not even be necessary. If its used properly it is harmless.

You have read the history of societies; they all started as clans, only to advance and leave it behind. You could argue how we define clans and claim that most modern societies are clan based (network/spheres of rule) but these has nothing to do with the nonsense abtiris which is equal to the existence of St Clause.

Primitive societies= clan based
Advanced societies= network based

I can't stand this self-hating little pillocks that roam this pages with their daily dose of calaacal.

Somalis are this and that...but may Allah bless the "arrogant, stupid and foolish Somali".

Somalis are the most united of all the other Muslim communities.

JaalleMarx wrote:

Murax wrote:

JaalleMarx wrote:Muraxoow, you could engage in charitable endeavours without belonging to a clan.

True, but I was speaking in light of Somali's situation. In Life You have to work with contemporary realities for the time You live in. Clan in Somalia has been around for probably thousands of years. To try to eliminate clans altogether is not realistic and may not even be necessary. If its used properly it is harmless.

You have read the history of societies; they all started as clans, only to advance and leave it behind. You could argue how we define clans and claim that most modern societies are clan based (network/spheres of rule) but these has nothing to do with the nonsense abtiris which is equal to the existence of St Clause.

Primitive societies= clan based
Advanced societies= network based

Oh I definitely agree in terms of primitive vs advanced. Imagine if 1.5 billion Muslims viewed their fellow Muslim as a true brother? That would be a severely advanced society. Unforunately in life You have to take baby steps. Somalia is a stone age, animistic society. Even joining a primitive society grouping would be accomplishment.

JaalleMarx wrote:

Murax wrote:

JaalleMarx wrote:Muraxoow, you could engage in charitable endeavours without belonging to a clan.

True, but I was speaking in light of Somali's situation. In Life You have to work with contemporary realities for the time You live in. Clan in Somalia has been around for probably thousands of years. To try to eliminate clans altogether is not realistic and may not even be necessary. If its used properly it is harmless.

You have read the history of societies; they all started as clans, only to advance and leave it behind. You could argue how we define clans and claim that most modern societies are clan based (network/spheres of rule) but these has nothing to do with the nonsense abtiris which is equal to the existence of St Clause.

Primitive societies= clan based
Advanced societies= network based

What is with the self hate, man?

If it weren't for colonialism and, subsequently, globalization, Somalis would have organically solved the issues that plague them today. You can't honestly believe a country with a +60% rural population to understand the inherent good of centralized government.

And to call it primitive is simply self hate, I'm sorry. Why do you idolize the West when it has been built on the exploitation of both the Earth and its Peoples? On top of heavy militarization (don't point out current Europe, think to the recent past 50-300 years ago) and xenophobic competition.

I personally believe a consumer based culture (which, let's face it, is what the West is) is worse than a clan based one.

JaalleMarx wrote:

LiquidHYDROGEN wrote:Qabiil is not the problem but qabyaalad. Just like all knives aren't bad but the murderer who uses it to stab someone to death is. The problem here is most somalis never learn anything positive or good but only the bad habits. If somalis were tribalists but at the same time were productive, hard-working, and progressive it would be something. But when you couple qabyaalad with dishonesty, corruption, laziness and spitefulness it becomes unbearable and shows the real issue is not qabyaalad but an inherent problem within somalis and somali culture. Just look at this ape;

http://allafrica.com/stories/201410200682.html

LH; it is the same; one is a diagnosis, the other is the disease. It is like cancer and the tumour that is visible for the naked eye.

I have to agree with Liquid. It is inevitable that we have the clan system since God himself told us that he has made of us into men and women, tribes, race, nations etc. In this case qabil is not the problem but Qabyaalad. Qabil is just a identity just like religion, race or gender. Brushing qabil aside will not solve Qabyaalad. But rather if people are aware of the disadvantages & advantages of qabil we can reform our outlook on qabil in order to prevent qabyaalad. Somalis should be more open with qabil, it is always good to bring things forward instead of keeping it in and letting it boil.

My main concern is general politics, social/family elements of qabil is not so deadly, apart from discriminations which is not so common anymore in Somalia today actually. Things are actually improving, we don't have people being discriminated in normal jobs, schools, marriages as before then now. Qabyaalad is more lively in the national politics and the statehood arena. Perhaps just the way certain European countries have segregated religion from the state, Somalis should segregate qabil from the state.

@JaalleMarx
Jaale, I find your arguments the most rational simple and logical, I wish we could all think like that. Qalbi cafimaad leh

I don't believe you need clan for anything, you can do good and engage in activities that lead to the development and improvement of a society. You can Help orphans, dig well and all other good endeavours without clan.

Muslimstruggler wrote:@JaalleMarx
Jaale, I find your arguments the most rational simple and logical, I wish we could all think like that. Qalbi cafimaad leh

I don't believe you need clan for anything, you can do good and engage in activities that lead to the development and improvement of a society. You can Help orphans, dig well and all other good endeavours without clan.

Clan is just a identity just like your ethnicity. If it wasn't for your ethnicity the Somalis abroad wouldn't had been able to mobilise and form a community of network to serve the people they share a ethnic identity. The clan system does the same. During the war when the government fell, people used the clan system to mobilise their clans-people though financial help in order to sustain their well-being since there were was no government to protect them. Sometimes the clan system can be useful, especially that Somalis have required a practise of their own indigenous customary law since ancient time. Hence why the Somali people were able to survive in such lawless environment because they have established their own system through the use of the clan system and the Xeer customary law. Syrian refugees won't be able to survive their civil war the same way Somalis did, and that is because of our clan system and Xeer law has helped us. Clan system has matter of fact mobilised us Somalis strongly whether it be inside the country or outside the country. The clan system of the Somalis is actually more sophisticated than the 'tribal' system of other Africans or Europeans or Asians. The main thing is to prevent a 'ism'. Just like racism, sexism etc. We need to prevent clanism.

@Ximanjaale
I understand what you mean, clan has some benefits, but in my opinion and in the context of what happened during the civil war, I think the cons outweigh the pros. To be honest if it was up to me I would abandon the whole clan system over night. I remember this anthropologist saying that Somalis have always fought each other because of qabill, but because we live in modern times, the impact is not like before where people were using spears and primitive weapons. A qabil war in this day and age would bring humanitarian crisis. Plus the world has more fitnah now, add qabill to the mix and its a disaster. Somalis in the past although had problems with qabill could overcome it because there was less fitnah, the were more pure and simpler, the xeer was stronger.

Muslimstruggler wrote:@Ximanjaale
I understand what you mean, clan has some benefits, but in my opinion and in the context of what happened during the civil war, I think the cons outweigh the pros. To be honest if it was up to me I would abandon the whole clan system over night. I remember this anthropologist saying that Somalis have always fought each other because of qabill, but because we live in modern times, the impact is not like before where people were using spears and primitive weapons. A qabil war in this day and age would bring humanitarian crisis. Plus the world has more fitnah now, add qabill to the mix and its a disaster. Somalis in the past although had problems with qabill could overcome it because there was less fitnah, the were more pure and simpler, the xeer was stronger.

Don't listen to these racist anthropologist. Yes Somalis in the past used to fight together over clan mainly fighting over land or looting eachother from camels, but it wasn't so significant as some racist white anthropologist puts it down. Somalis of the past were actually civilised and governed themselves through their own indigenous Xeer law, we were more of a federal-like people back then, establishing city-like states throughout the countries or establishing different clan sultanate's.

Qabil matter of fact caused the war but it also helped Somalis to survive from the war. You remind me of white racist that call all Muslim terrorist and that Islam is a deadly religion. We should not blame religion in this case 'Qabil', but qabyaalad which is a 'ism' just like racism.

I agree that qabil is worthless when it comes to the national arena, national governance, power-sharing and law etc. But it is not easy to eradicate qabil just like that, it is actually more easier to eradicate 'qabyaalad' than 'qabil'. Let's all focus qabyaalad 'ism'.

The problem is some somalis calacal about qabil and the next day you see the same kneegrow in another thread fighting for his clan and insulting others.naga daaaya bahasha.

BaastoUnit wrote:The problem is some somalis calacal about qabil and the next day you see the same kneegrow in another thread fighting for his clan and insulting others.naga daaaya bahasha.

@Baastounit
No need to be so negative, some people do it out of kaftan, I know its still not right, but others believe in it and there is a difference.

The Month of: I hate being somali, we are so f-king dumb, somalis are stupid and foolish".

Brother Murax u are not really helpful. We are already depressed nation. Dont make it worse.

XimanJaale wrote:

Muslimstruggler wrote:@Ximanjaale
I understand what you mean, clan has some benefits, but in my opinion and in the context of what happened during the civil war, I think the cons outweigh the pros. To be honest if it was up to me I would abandon the whole clan system over night. I remember this anthropologist saying that Somalis have always fought each other because of qabill, but because we live in modern times, the impact is not like before where people were using spears and primitive weapons. A qabil war in this day and age would bring humanitarian crisis. Plus the world has more fitnah now, add qabill to the mix and its a disaster. Somalis in the past although had problems with qabill could overcome it because there was less fitnah, the were more pure and simpler, the xeer was stronger.

Don't listen to these racist anthropologist. Yes Somalis in the past used to fight together over clan mainly fighting over land or looting eachother from camels, but it wasn't so significant as some racist white anthropologist puts it down. Somalis of the past were actually civilised and governed themselves through their own indigenous Xeer law, we were more of a federal-like people back then, establishing city-like states throughout the countries or establishing different clan sultanate's.

Qabil matter of fact caused the war but it also helped Somalis to survive from the war. You remind me of white racist that call all Muslim terrorist and that Islam is a deadly religion. We should not blame religion in this case 'Qabil', but qabyaalad which is a 'ism' just like racism.

I agree that qabil is worthless when it comes to the national arena, national governance, power-sharing and law etc. But it is not easy to eradicate qabil just like that, it is actually more easier to eradicate 'qabyaalad' than 'qabil'. Let's all focus qabyaalad 'ism'.

Ximan, as I said before, I do think there are some benefits in clan. There is nothing in this world that is pure evil or pure good. Its always a combination. In my opinion caln has more bad in it than good, its poisonous and creates an a hateful environment of us and them. Its the most uncomfortable feeling.