Somalia System of Governance?

[Hodan94]

Hodan94
you don`t make sense to me walaal, you sound like a uneducated red neck (no offence)


qabyalada iska daa walaal gabar ba tahay, orod ilmahaga korso ama hadi lugu gabin, orod nin guurso, paltalk iyo SNET ha ku wareegin ee.

u dickhead am I talking about qabyalad? its u that's the uneducated fool.

jamuuriyaad and federal are 2 different meanings that's my point is u who don't understand this bullshit ur leaders are selling to you.

[samatar133]

Hodan94

You are right. They should have one system or the other. they can't simply delude themselves of wishing to kill one stone into three birds.
You end up with nothing and a complete failure. That is where somalia is headed.

srsbsn

If you think a system that creates a perpetual conflict within the branch of the state that is supposed to govern the country as a good system that is supposed to be protected instead of reformed, then you are not helping Somalians to say the least.
The the whole essence of democracy is that the will of the people should govern. The will of the people governs through elected representatives. It does not matter if the elected representative is a prime minister or a president. The point is who ever the elected is who has the mandate from the people should form the cabinet and formulate the policies of the government subject to, of course, the acceptance of other elected branches of the state namely the legislative branch.

If you are trying to convince me that a system that gives an extra-ordinary power to some unelected person, and confuses the whole executive branch is a good system that ensures balance and accountability, you are simply a typical Somali who is only concerned about clan power sharing and tribalism.

Tyhoon

You are right the the system is not set to work. What I disagree with is that a system that is set to disable the emergence of good and working institutions will somehow ultimately help Somalis by allowing them to learn from their mistakes.
It is like saying let me learn through the method of trial and error when there is already a proven solution in place. At end you might learn, but you will waste unnecessary time.

[Typhoon]

Hodan94
you don`t make sense to me walaal, you sound like a uneducated red neck (no offence)


qabyalada iska daa walaal gabar ba tahay, orod ilmahaga korso ama hadi lugu gabin, orod nin guurso, paltalk iyo SNET ha ku wareegin ee.

u dickhead am I talking about qabyalad? its u that's the uneducated fool.

jamuuriyaad and federal are 2 different meanings that's my point is u who don't understand this bullshit ur leaders are selling to you.

You have not contributed to the debate so far except tribalizing and trivialising the discourse.

hodan ha is ceebeen walaal, I know you are disabled and can`t leave the house and am not holding that against you, but stop this obsession with SNET and paltalk qabyalad, you see qabiil boogeyman every where.

we are talking about politics and institution and you want talk about qabyalad qaad iyo waxaan aan lo jogin

[Typhoon]

samtar would you agree that somalis current system is functioning? maybe not ideally as we would like it to be, but knowing where Somalia came from is not a testament to the resilience and the legitimacy of the current model.

State-formation is not something you can pick of the shelf.
Yes, political institutions arise from trial and error, societal evolution and political experience.

[sahal80]

A politician has told me this story about the creation of the somali constitution

He said there were three somali camps like the former TNG allies, islamists, independent politicians and the ethiopian backed morgan movement and SSRC

So, sharif hassan who was allied with the TNG/islamist camp has won the speaker position over his cousins in SSRC like shaatigaduud and adan madoobe

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia_ ... on_Council
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_P ... c_Movement
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juba_Valley_Alliance
In here, ethiopia was not expecting its camp to win the presidency so she quickly advised to the federal charter writers(wich is this constitution is based on now) to give the authorities to the pm

Unexpectedly its camp have won the presidency bc of too many candidates in the other camp also funding them!

Neverthless the constitution is full of contradictions when it comes to the pres-pm, central govt and the regions

Article 100 gives the right to the pm to appoint and dismiss his cabinet

Article 90 suggests that the pm has only "soo jeedin" and the president to dismiss them

Now each of them has these points besides there's so called xeer hoosaad between the president and cabinet wich states that the president to approve them in such cases.

Yeah I agree to git rid of this system bc they r not the same, one was elected and the other was appointed!

Hodan

Lol wtf! Jamhouriya/republic stands only for a democratic country with elected leaders the opposite of kingdom

Federalism is the system/nizam!

[samatar133]

Typhoon

One's perception of how functional a state is also is a reflection of one's expectation and ambition.
To expect less from Somalia is not surprising at all, to be fair. But I hope you would agree that with the all said progress Somalia made so far, it is still regarded too dysfunctional even in the standards of Sub Saharan Africa.

The question I raised today was not about a wide ranging institutional reform, which I believe is needed anyway. But it was about making a small corrective change to power distribution within the executive branch. I am not all convinced that absurd clan power sharing that impedes the functioning of democracy is the way forward for Somalia.

Let me agree with you that things have improved somewhat but I believe it could be accelerated further through correct reforms.

[sahal80]

Samatar

This is not a permanent constitution, it was done hasty and was part of the political process at that time

Now we are doing real reconciliations, federal states, permanent constitution

In carte was done the conferences like the 4.5 and the TNG, this system will disappear by 2016 and we will have political parties instead

In embegati was done the federal charter, federal parliament and TFG

Constitution was adopted by the last parliament(sh sharif era but after vew articles got modified)

Now SFG will reform and revise all these processes to end all the contradictions that exist in the constitution and without foreing hands being part of it this time

Its not permanent system.

[Typhoon]

Typhoon

One's perception of how functional a state is also is a reflection of one's expectation and ambition.
To expect less from Somalia is not surprising at all, to be fair. But I hope you would agree that with the all said progress Somalia made so far, it is still regarded too dysfunctional even in the standards of Sub Saharan Africa.

The question I raised today was not about a wide ranging institutional reform, which I believe is needed anyway. But it was about making a small corrective change to power distribution within the executive branch. I am not all convinced that absurd clan power sharing that impedes the functioning of democracy is the way forward for Somalia.

Let me agree with you that things have improved somewhat but I believe it could be accelerated further through correct reforms.

I agree with you on 90% except on the part on democracy.

Democracy is a dysfunctional system, to impose that type of system upon a disorganised stateless society is a recipe we have seen before, after all, the failure of democracy is what gave us kacaankii.

Democracy requires a well-informed society, rule of law, non-tribal association
If you democratise the Somali state following things will arise; tribalism, cronyism and competitive and destructive anarchic capitalism and weak bureaucracy with nepotism as the modis oprandi

If you want democracy, you need to offset the negative aspects of democracy that are amplified by entrenched societal negative tendencies

The Iranian model would be a good example, on how to precede on the question of reconciling democracy with the reality of Somali social structure

PS: have you noticed in somaliland how election opens up the tribal pandora box, while its the non-elected house of guurti is always the anti thesis to the democratic thesis which creates a synthesis of both and usher a consense model
Meaning democracy produces crisis, which give a tribal undertone to the discourse while the guurti give a consenses tone yet the guurti is in essence a non-democratic (don`t compare guurti with the feudalist European house of lords that is naïve, there are no anglo saxon chief in house of lords)

Democracy is a deadlock system, what works in the islamic world is rule of law based institutional consensus system
There is a hegelian dilatic political process going in somalia that will give rise to something that resembles modern egalitarian (tribal equality among the 4 majors) state.

Will it be perfect, no, will it function yes, will it disintegrate in the long term, yes.

[MaydhMax]

typhoon sahal et al

wouldn't you agree that come the next election in 2016 or whenever someone who wants to rule should seek the control of the parliament and run for the prime minister's post and sponsor a puppet to be president

[Typhoon]

typhoon sahal et al

wouldn't you agree that come the next election in 2016 or whenever someone who wants to rule should seek the control of the parliament and run for the prime minister's post and sponsor a puppet to be president

What are you on about?
I did not understand the gibberish shit you wrote.

[samatar133]

Typhoon

sxb, all the points you have raised about democracy and how without rule of law and without informed/education society, it could degenerate into a system of mere tribal competition in the Somali context is absolutely valid. But we live in an imperfect world where we have no option other than to chose the best of imperfect alternatives.

I am not too sure as to how the Iranian system could be applied to the Somali situation without facing the obvious risk of accepting new form of dictatorship.
The supreme leader? how is he going to come to power in the first place? is he gonna come through a concocted revolution? and how is he gonna be different from the Gudoomiyihii golaha sare ee kacaanka hantiwadaaga ummada soomaaliyeed, the one we had between 1969 and 1991?
I can't honestly see the Iranian system as a better alternative than the current 4.5 let alone a fully functioning democracy coupled with rule of law.

This is how I see things. Somalia like any country needs a government and a leader to run the country. That leader should emerge through one system of another.
The alternatives systems we have 1) 4.5 clan power sharing system. I think we will all agree this is not the best alternative in the long run for many obvious reasons. I will elaborate those reasons later if needed. 2) Dictatorship and Supreme leader guided revolutions. This is not an option. We already had one and we do not need another.
What we are left with is democracy with its all imperfections when applied to clan based nomadic societies like the Somalis. But its the best of option of bad alternatives, in my opinion, and it can be made work for Somalis too. I could even go as far as to argue that a real democracy with strong emphasis on the rule of law aspect of the democracy could be the ultimate cure for the destructive Somali tribalism.

[samatar133]

Sahal

waan gartay. Is Farah Cabdulqadir not the minister in charge of completing the constitution?

I suspect the heart of the disagreement between the president and the prime minister was about whose vision of the constitution prevails.

[MaydhMax]

typhoon sahal et al

wouldn't you agree that come the next election in 2016 or whenever someone who wants to rule should seek the control of the parliament and run for the prime minister's post and sponsor a puppet to be president

What are you on about?
I did not understand the gibberish shit you wrote.

do you not understand english! what i wrote is basic for even a primary/elementary school student to understand lool

[LiquidHYDROGEN]

Democracy requires these things to work properly;

- A large, well-informed and well-educated middle-class population
- Strong institutions and judiciary bodies
- A lack of sectarianism/factions/tribalism

Somalia has none of that.

[gurey25]

Hodan dear federalism and republic are not mutually exclusive.
fir example federal republic of germany.

and typhoon us that really you?
You sound so reasonable and intelligent and informed.
wtf happened to you.