Pakistan declines to join Saudi Arabia's anti-Iran alliance

[original dervish]

Wasn't much of a stabilizing influence if you were a Vietnamese, Chilean, Indonesian, Iraqi etc etc.

[James Dahl]

Wasn't much of a stabilizing influence if you were a Vietnamese, Chilean, Indonesian, Iraqi etc etc.

I think you are confusing stabilizing with benevolent, which are two different things. US influence was by no means benevolent, it was quite cynical and occasionally brutal. Stabilizing means that the political situation doesn't change, it is stable in that forces seeking to change the status quo are less powerful than the establishment seeking to preserve it. Stability is not inherently good, occasionally you want instability to change things.

[James Dahl]

US policy in general views instability as a negative, and if change is allowed to occur, only at an incremental pace. The whole MENA region is basically no longer governed by US influence and the US lid that keeps all these desires to change things down and bottled up has been removed. People who have been advocating for a middle east no longer governed by US interests are getting what they wished for.

Be careful what you wish for.

[original dervish]

You were using "stabilizing" as if it was a force for good.
Stabilizing to the US/West translates as the uninterrupted flow of resources from the periphery to the centers of capitalism.

I like how you try to convince us that the US is some kind of benign diminishing force in the world.
All of the destabilization we see is a direct result of US policy.

[James Dahl]

I just said the exact opposite of what you claim I said lol

[gurey25]

James the US used to be a stabalizing force, stablizing as in freezing the existing conditions and fighting change in its sphere of influence
which covers most of the world.
As it loses power and influence the US has been using destabilization as a policy, look at Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria and Ukraine.
When the US is checkmated geopolitically and has no room to manouever it creates chaos and destruction so that it can pounce on the oppurtunities that open up during the chaos,

The best example is the Maidan coup in Ukraine, Yanukovich won the election fair and square and he decided not to destroy Eastern Ukraines industry by joining the EU, so he delayed.
The EU and US choice candidates where the yulia timochenko criminal that would never win an election again, or worse.
The West was checkmated and Russia thought everything was fine and dandy, we can relax a little,
and then Pow!!!! Maidan Muthfukkas.

Assad was and still is a giant Damn holding back Western Geopolitical strategic interests and he was untouchable.
another case for Chaos..

The US has tried to stir the pot in Khyrgystan as well, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan and Tajikistan, with only Kyrgystan almost succeeding.
Kyrgystan was a perfect copy of Maidan, with the snipers and all.
Just as in Kiev snipers fired at security forces killing several, as well as the protestors.


We are experiencing the deaththrow of US starategic decline,
the US will use the Chaos card because this is the only thing that has a chance of working anymore.

You should expect more Libyas, More somalia, More afghanistans and Iraqs and Syrias all over the world.

The US is hard at work turning venezuala into a libya and poor unimaginative maduro is unwittingly helping by not playing hard ball.

[James Dahl]

James the US used to be a stabalizing force, stablizing as in freezing the existing conditions and fighting change in its sphere of influence
which covers most of the world.
As it loses power and influence the US has been using destabilization as a policy, look at Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria and Ukraine.
When the US is checkmated geopolitically and has no room to manouever it creates chaos and destruction so that it can pounce on the oppurtunities that open up during the chaos,

The best example is the Maidan coup in Ukraine, Yanukovich won the election fair and square and he decided not to destroy Eastern Ukraines industry by joining the EU, so he delayed.
The EU and US choice candidates where the yulia timochenko criminal that would never win an election again, or worse.
The West was checkmated and Russia thought everything was fine and dandy, we can relax a little,
and then Pow!!!! Maidan Muthfukkas.

Assad was and still is a giant Damn holding back Western Geopolitical strategic interests and he was untouchable.
another case for Chaos..

The US has tried to stir the pot in Khyrgystan as well, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan and Tajikistan, with only Kyrgystan almost succeeding.
Kyrgystan was a perfect copy of Maidan, with the snipers and all.
Just as in Kiev snipers fired at security forces killing several, as well as the protestors.


We are experiencing the deaththrow of US starategic decline,
the US will use the Chaos card because this is the only thing that has a chance of working anymore.

You should expect more Libyas, More somalia, More afghanistans and Iraqs and Syrias all over the world.

The US is hard at work turning venezuala into a libya and poor unimaginative maduro is unwittingly helping by not playing hard ball.

Oh sure just gloss over the whole Russia invading Afghanistan and creating the chaos in the first place, the assassinations and arrests of opposition leaders in Russian proxy era Ukraine, and Kyrgyzstan being a Chinese plot and not a western one. Squint a little, ignore various unhelpful facts and stir in some conspiracy theories and it all fits.

You would be perhaps surprised to learn that the world is capable of creating chaos all by itself without western intervention. The actors involved for the "western conspiracy" hypothesis to actually be true are so outlandish as to be absurd. Iraq is the way it is because the prime minister of Iraq sparked a civil war pretty much as soon as the US withdrew and screwed it all up, and basically lost, with Sunni militias marching on Baghdad in concert with ISIS fruitcakes, who in turn have only themselves lost momentum due to ISIS being morons and picking fights with everyone.

Somalia could solve all of her internal problems with relative ease if all the various actors involved would stop fighting amongst themselves. To call this a western pro-chaos conspiracy is not giving due credit to all the hard work of all the paranoid uncooperative militia leaders who currently reside in the halls of power across Somalia. A similar problem exists in Libya, noone forced all these power crazed militia leaders to start killing each other and to explain that the west wanted this to happen makes literally no sense, seeing how the west wanted steady oil production and business growth in Libya and civil war does the opposite of that.

[FAH1223]

You can theorize about a China-Russia resistance to the evil west all you want, that doesn't change the reality of China and Pakistan building nukes for Saudi

This gives me nightmares to be honest.
pakistan is the weakest link its because the pakistani deep state is fractured into poweful competing factions.
you have salafi fundamentalist officers, you some who are loyal to the house of saud through some lubrication if funds and ideology. Currently it is controlled by secularist generals , even the ISI is dominated by secular and western officers.


this is why pakistans policy is schizophrenic
it depends on who has the upperhand at the moment.
china does not sell nuclear weapons they told pakistan a close ally that they need to build it themselves.
but pakistan might actually honour its commitments.

saudi nukes are scary shit because the house of saud will not last.
iran is a responsible and mature country that can handle nukes.

So, the Saudis are going to get nukes now that the Iran deal is on, right?

[gurey25]

Saudis are tlaking shit, no one will allow them to start a program,
pakistan will be under so much pressure not to do it, and it will be from someone they trust and need desperatley.
Pakistan is an independent country because of its Alliance with china, without chinese support the US will turn it into a failed state overnight.
(and the the fact that its small nuclear arsenal is easy to disrupt and capture/destroy. the only reason why the US has not tries anything stupid is because someone in the ISI told them that if they lose contact with any of their nuclear weapons, for 5 minutes they will fire everything at India,
pull the plug on the whole thing. The US knows that ISI is crazy and committed enough to do it)

I predict the Saudis will ask for their nukes, the Chinese will scuttle the deal.
Depending on who wind the expected fight between the faction.
The Saudi faction in the ISI is the weakest one, they are in third place after the Pro-western Secualrists and the Nationalist Secualrists.

and by the way the plitical parties and the courts in pakistan are irelevant to security issues.
The millitary and ISIS will simply tell them to shut the fuck up and mind your own business,

[original dervish]

Judging by the performance of the Saudi air force, they couldn't hit a military base even with US guidance, I wouldn't trust them to deliver a loaf of bread.
James Dhal seems like a genuine person....just a bit too much of the "white man's burden", all too prevalent among the peace corp types.