Slavery & our Reformation imperative: "I lower my head in shame"

[Shirib]

Is there a single reputable Islamic scholar who justifies slavery in today's day and age?

[Leftist]

Is there a single reputable Islamic scholar who justifies slavery in today's day and age?

There isn't just one or two or 5, there are hundreds of "reputable" or as zumaale would put it "classically distinguished" scholars who support slavery yesterday, today, and tomorrow. But does that even matter to you? Deep down inside, you know that slavery is a barbaric abomination of a practice and per the Golden Rule(do unto others.....) you would never allow your female relatives to be enslaved, even if it is/was a "humane"(what a joke) form of slavery.. So apparently, according to the Official GateKeepers and Defenders of the One and Only True Faith: it's perfectly ok to enslave the "gaalo"/infidels, but it's never ok to enslave us "the chosen beoble" right? Fuck that hypocritical noise right in the baasto.

So again, I ask you, does your question even matter? No it doesn't. Because even if I produce hundreds of scholars who support slavery in our modern era, you would not dare disagree with them. Because you would be afraid of being called a murtad/aposate. Herd mentality and group-think has enervated you as it is has weakened and enervated hundreds of millions of muslims throughout the centuries.

You're going to have to get over the discomfort and pain of rejecting the practices of saxaabah, they lived in their era, we live in ours. To them their practices, to us ours.

Here some other practices that were ok then, but are fundamentally unacceptable in the 21st century:

- Jizya: You would be screaming bloody hell if you were forced to pay a "special" tax because you are a Muslim.....but if the so-called Mahdi/Messiah comes out tomorrow, and he announces the return of Jizyah, would you have the moral decency & honesty to reject his bullshit, or would you be a hypocrite like so many of our co-religionists are?

- chopping the hands of thieves: Name a single rich, elite person throughout 14 centuries that had his hands chopped off? No one? Yeah, so fuck that noise. You want me to accept chopping off the hands of the poor and working class while Haroon Rasheed and Ina Sufyaan live rich off their murder and slavery? Even if, theoretically, chopping hands, would be done on a equitable basis(which is a historical & statistical impossibility), it would still be wrong, because we have evolved in our morality, and chopping hands is barbaric and inhumane in the 21st century.

Again, if you want to live in the 21st century, you have absolutely no choice but to embrace the Reformation, and that requires you to reject practices that were seen to be ok and normal in the 7th century, but since mankind's morality has evolved since the 7th century, those practices like slavery, stoning, chopping, apostate-exeuction are seen as exactly what they are: barbaric and inhumane practices that mankind has evolved from. We are better Muslims now in the 21st century than we were in the 7th and 8th century. Muslims living today are 100% more moral and have a better understanding of Islam than the Saxabah and the Taabicieen, who engaged in unislamic and 100% xaraam slavery, for example.

[Leftist]

Is there a single reputable Islamic scholar who justifies slavery in today's day and age?

The question should be: "Is there a single reputable mainstream/traditionalist/orthodox Islamic scholar who calls for the unequivocal abolishment of slavery in today's day and age?"

And the answer is: none, zero. They all fear condemning slavery because they are afraid, just like you are, of being branded apostate-heretics, and all the punitive consequences up to and including murder, that will follow.

Which is why the only hope Islam and Muslims have in the 21st century, after Ebbe(SWT), is the Reformation and the Reformers who will update our Deen for our improved and evolved morality in the 21st century.

[Leftist]

Is there a single reputable Islamic scholar who justifies slavery in today's day and age?

And even tho your question was clearly rhetorical, I will still answer it: Salah Fowzaan gave a fatwa in 2003 which he openly justified and supported slavery not just for today, but for all times:

Al-Fawzan's views on slavery—given in lectures recorded on cassette—came to light and caused some controversy in 2003. In the tape he was quoted as saying, “Slavery is a part of Islam ... Slavery is part of jihad, and jihad will remain as long there is Islam.” As for the modernist interpretation that Islam totally abolished slavery, he dismissed its exponents saying, “They are ignorant, not scholars. ... Whoever says such things is an infidel

"Questioner: ... one of the contemporary writers is of the view that this religion, at its inception, was compelled to accept the institution of slavery ... [but] ... that the intent of the Legislator [i.e. God] is to gradually end this institution of slavery. So what is your view on this?

Shaikh Salih alFawzaan: These are words of falsehood (baatil) ... despite that many of the writers and thinkers -- and we do not say scholars -- repeat these words. Rather we say that they are thinkers (mufakkireen), just as they call them. And it is unfortunate, that they also call them `Du'at' (callers). ... These words are falsehood ... This is deviation and a false accusation against Islaam. And if it had not been for the excuse of ignorance [because] we excuse them on account of (their) ignorance so we do not say that they are Unbelievers because they are ignorant and are blind followers .... Otherwise, these statements are very dangerous and if a person said them deliberately he would become apostate and leave Islaam."

Will you, Shirib, condemn Saleh Fowzan as a ignorant & stupid old fool who has given the bigots and racists who hate Muslims the best gift they could possible wish for, will you condemn him? No. You will not. Because Hypocirty. Because Status Quo. Because "Shaykh hebel baa sidaa yiri". Because "Culumada looma

And for that, you are a coward. You would rather see Islam torn to pieces by ignorant old fools like Saleh Fowzaan, rather than stand up and say: "No, you are wrong, this is not Islam. This is racist & misogynist bull-shit that has been passed down the centuries started with (some) Saxaabah and onward; this has got to stop and we have to reform our religion so that we can once again re-capture the true message of Nabi Muxamad, a message of mercy & moderation unto the entirety of mankind."

But because of Cowardice, you choose to stew in a weak and fetid sauce of oppressive orthodoxy, openly racist dogma, misogynist "shareecah" and all sorts of qashin that has been accumulated and passed down thru the centuries by ignorant men and their shameless greed and lustful animalistic desires.

Shirib, be brave bro:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUQsqBqxoR4

[TheGrumpyGeeljire]

Alrighty then Leftie, lets do away with religion and culture and embrace Western values. All our problems will vanish, disappear, KABOOM! We'll have shots of Tequila as we talk about the finer points of 'secularism' at the local makhaaya..... I mean bar. Bring on the good times
















No, not gonna happen

[Leftist]

^^ Do you even have the capacity to rub two brain cells together

Here, let me help you out:

Virtually all "mainstream" scholars, classical & contemporary do no support the abolishment of slavery because, according to their rigidly literalist dogma, since it is mentioned in the Quran and practiced by the Saxabaah, then it is an essential part of the deen, and any attempt to abolish it means apostasy/kufr, as hebel Fowzaan spelled out in in the post above. Where do you stand? Do you think that the slavery that was practised in 7th and 8th century is good/great/awesome/not-so-good?

My next question is: How would you like it inaa (immediate female relative)-daada aan soo xaraysto, oo habayn-kee marba dhinac oo gediyo, and then, marka aan ka dhargo, I would merely "gift" her and pass her on to anybody I wanted,oh, and if she ran away, then her prayer would not be accepted and if she dies, she will not enter Baradize!!! and I would be doing all this in the name of God and in the name of Islam.

You're not laughing now are you? When millions of women, century after century, were enslaved and turned into concubines, you laugh and crack jokes....but when it's your immediate female relative that is being plowed(by me?), then you will cry: "We have human rights!!!!, this unacceptable!!!!"

Is your (sadly)(self-imposed) limited intelligence sufficient for you to even begin to comprehend the inherent barbarity of even the mere theory of slavery, let alone it's practice; not to mention the astounding hypocrisy of slavery as we Muslims have practiced it for centuries?

The answer is no. Crack another joke, ilko-cadeey like this or like this , and them move on to your life herd-mentality sheep lyfe where you graze with the other sheep(ie, your qabiil).

Like I said, I don't care about ad hominems, but once in a while, try to address the substance of the discussion, which in this case is:

My next question is: How would you like it inaa (immediate female relative)-daada aan soo xaraysto, oo habayn-kee marba dhinac oo gediyo, and then, marka aan ka dhargo,I would merely "gift" her and pass her on to anybody I wanted,oh, and if she ran away, then her prayer would not be accepted and if she dies, she will not enter Baradize!!! and I would be doing all this in the name of God and in the name of Islam.

Again, try to rub 2 brain cells together and see if you can form a substantive thought/response/rebuttal/anything.

[TheGrumpyGeeljire]

Stop this written diarrhoea. Seriously, no one believes you. Fuck off with your apologistic anti-Islamic diatribe!

[Shirib]

Is there a single reputable Islamic scholar who justifies slavery in today's day and age?

There isn't just one or two or 5, there are hundreds of "reputable" or as zumaale would put it "classically distinguished" scholars who support slavery yesterday, today, and tomorrow. But does that even matter to you? Deep down inside, you know that slavery is a barbaric abomination of a practice and per the Golden Rule(do unto others.....) you would never allow your female relatives to be enslaved, even if it is/was a "humane"(what a joke) form of slavery.. So apparently, according to the Official GateKeepers and Defenders of the One and Only True Faith: it's perfectly ok to enslave the "gaalo"/infidels, but it's never ok to enslave us "the chosen beoble" right? Fuck that hypocritical noise right in the baasto.

So again, I ask you, does your question even matter? No it doesn't. Because even if I produce hundreds of scholars who support slavery in our modern era, you would not dare disagree with them. Because you would be afraid of being called a murtad/aposate. Herd mentality and group-think has enervated you as it is has weakened and enervated hundreds of millions of muslims throughout the centuries.

You're going to have to get over the discomfort and pain of rejecting the practices of saxaabah, they lived in their era, we live in ours. To them their practices, to us ours.

Here some other practices that were ok then, but are fundamentally unacceptable in the 21st century:

- Jizya: You would be screaming bloody hell if you were forced to pay a "special" tax because you are a Muslim.....but if the so-called Mahdi/Messiah comes out tomorrow, and he announces the return of Jizyah, would you have the moral decency & honesty to reject his bullshit, or would you be a hypocrite like so many of our co-religionists are?

- chopping the hands of thieves: Name a single rich, elite person throughout 14 centuries that had his hands chopped off? No one? Yeah, so fuck that noise. You want me to accept chopping off the hands of the poor and working class while Haroon Rasheed and Ina Sufyaan live rich off their murder and slavery? Even if, theoretically, chopping hands, would be done on a equitable basis(which is a historical & statistical impossibility), it would still be wrong, because we have evolved in our morality, and chopping hands is barbaric and inhumane in the 21st century.

Again, if you want to live in the 21st century, you have absolutely no choice but to embrace the Reformation, and that requires you to reject practices that were seen to be ok and normal in the 7th century, but since mankind's morality has evolved since the 7th century, those practices like slavery, stoning, chopping, apostate-exeuction are seen as exactly what they are: barbaric and inhumane practices that mankind has evolved from. We are better Muslims now in the 21st century than we were in the 7th and 8th century. Muslims living today are 100% more moral and have a better understanding of Islam than the Saxabah and the Taabicieen, who engaged in unislamic and 100% xaraam slavery, for example.

Is this dude serious? Tomorrow I'm waiting for Leftist has a better understanding than Rasulu'Allah himself. What's home boy smoking

[Leftist]

^^ Let's put that to the side for now; actually, let me address this very quickly, but for any follow-ups, we're gonna open a new thread; this thread is strictly regarding slavery and the shameful silence("i lower my head in shame") that surrounds it both historically and over the past few decades; a unspoken taboo of shame & savagery is the result of traditionalism & orthodoxy, and ever the more reason for a Grand Reformation to shatter the chains of religious dogma and literalism.

Anyway:

I wrote earlier:

Muslims living today are 100% more moral and have a better understanding of Islam than the Saxabah and the Taabicieen, who engaged in unislamic and 100% xaraam slavery, for example.

and apparently you were all shocked like "OMG, how can he slap";

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Si_Zuzc4Ges




Well bro, and I am saying this as sincerely as possible, the heavily mythologized utopia we have been spoon-fed since we were kids in the dugsi is just exactly that: mythological utopia. The Saxaaabah and the Taabiceen were not some super-virtuous meta/uber-human who are heaven-bound <--- that's the mythology. The reality is that they were just like you and me. They woke up subixii with morning wood, had morning breath, and when they wanted to use the restroom, they had to dig a hole in the ground, squat down, and you know, #2...dee waa caynkaa, ina adeer. And that is how they saw themselves, as weak & fallible human beings, no more, no less. Yes, they did have many laud worthy attributes(courage, loyalty, sacrifice) and yes their Companionship of our beloved Mustafa is a ever-occuring-again once-in-history amazing experience , but they were still human beings who were a) influenced by and b) products of...........their environment, both their immediate Ay-Rab Bedouin environment as well as the wider encompassing barbaric global environment of the 7th century where human beings were routinely crucified, beheaded, raped, thrown off a cliff, merely on the say-so of whatever old fart was in power. Actually, now that I think of it, calling an actual old fart ruler, an old fart ruler, would be sufficient for you be to sentenced to death publicly, and with the approval of the ignorant masses. That's just how shit went done in the medieval era, bro-homie-G. Mucaawiya can start a war that kills tens of thousands? Nobody blinks an eye. His son Yaziid sends an army that pillages and rapes(just like the Serbs did in Bosnia) thousands in Madiinah? Eh, waa iska qadar, oo way qornayd. And just to show you how religious dogma has a stranglehold on you, you will not condemn Muawiya or his son. Why? Becaause Saxaabi Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free Card sheeko xareero; that's why.

But you know what, since I'm always accused of bashing Ina Sufyaan, First of His Name, Ruler of Quraysh and the First Dugaag, let me provide another example:

Ali bin Talib, the man who is venerated to the point of worship by hundreds of millions of Shia and actually deified and worshiped as a deity in his own right by millions more(alwaties, ismalis, druze, etc), up and decided he finna gonna burn-a ppl alive. Why? Because he, Ali bin Abi Talib, in one of the greatest ironies of our Islamic history forgot/ignored how Quraysh tortured and murdered a religious minority(ie,Muslims) in Makkah and decided he was gonna one-up Quraysh and exceed them in barbarity by torturing and murdering another religious minority(ie, alawites).This is a uncontested historical fact.

This report was narrated by al-Bukhary (6922) on the authority of `Ikrimah who said: Heretics were brought before Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) and he burnt them. When Ibn `Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) was informed about this, he said, “If I were in his place, I would not have burnt them for the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) forbad this saying, “Do not torment with the torment of Allah” and I would have killed them, for the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Whoever changes his religion, kill him.”” When a deviant group called al-Saba’iyyah, who were the followers of the Jewish `Abdullah ibn Saba’, went astray and believed that Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) was a god – we seek refuge with Allah from this – he (Ali) set them on fire and said, “When I saw such an enormous evil, I set them on fire and called.

The homie thought he could not only kill ppl merely on his say-so, but that he could burn ppl alive; daaamn, homie; in high school you was the maaaan homie

So Shirib bro, maybe that shit was ok, and by shit, i mean killing people who have different values/beliefs, and by shit, I mean cooking human beings in fire like they were a BBQ, but that shit don't fly in the 21st century. And a 13 year old muslim(or non-muslim) kid knows that burning ppl alive and/or "merely" killing ppl because they have a different belief-system is barbaric, immoral, & evil. So yes, in this specific situation, my 13 year old brother has a higher morality and a better understand of Islam than Ali bin Abi Talib and all of the "illustrious" "super-amazing" Sahabah that stood by and watched innocent human beings being fried alive. I won't presume to assume, but uh, maybe you don't care about those masaakiin being burnt to charred remains, but I f-king do, and if I could take a time-machine back to that era and that specific moment, let's just say, shaqo la yaqaano baan ka qaban lahaa ruux walba halkaa ku sugan, and I would be teaching them a lesson from the 21st century that there is thing called FREEDOM OF BELIEF and FREEDOM OF RELIGION, which is actually ENSHRINED in Quranic ayah 2:256: "There is no compulsion in Religion", but due to their(ie, Sahaba) weak understanding of Islam, and due to their being influenced by the autocratic tyranny of the Persian and Roman empires, mayhaps they thought it was ok for them to rob people of their Ebbe-gifted freedom of thought and their Ebbe-created right to life. After I go back in the time-machine, sida Back to the Future camal, Intaan fadhiisiyo baan cashar lama iloobaan ah oo dhigi lahaa, until they be like:

(shame) (regret iyo tiiraanyo)

And you might ask how exactly would I accomplish that, well, in the time-machine I would be taking back with me images & video of the future that they are actively creating with their failure to understand Islam correctly and with their being influenced not by Islam but by the cruelty of Ay-Rab(and Roman/Persian) as it existed in the 7th century: the never-ending sectarian blood-bath between various religious sects each claiming to posses The One and Only Truth; the appalling poverty, malnutrition, and violence due to (many factors, here's one): the lack of reason and rational thinking among Muslims for centuries.

All of that because homie Ali and the sahaba failed to understand a fundamental Islamic principle: There. Is. No. Compulsion. In. Religion. Ali thought that he had the right and the authority to murder human beings via burning them alive............because? Because you're the Gosh-Darn Caliph? Because Quraysh did the exact same thing to the early Muslims in Makkah? Because I-said-so, #KTHXBYE. Abdullah bin Abbas differed with him, but only on a technicality; Ibn Abbas be like: "Nah bro, don't burn them alive, just chop their heads off, youknowwhaimsaying bro"

So yes, Muslims living today, specifically those who are progressive and liberal, have a better understand of Islam and a higher Islamic morality than many(not all) of the Sahabah; and that's ok. Because as much we love them and respect them and cherish them, we also have to understand that they were products of the brutal environment of the 7th century. And that's ok. No human that has ever walked this earth is perfectly or even remotely perfectly, even the Messengers of God were flawed individuals: Moses/Muusaa with his temper, Yoonis with his defying of Ebbe, Ibrahim/Abrahim with his doubtful questioning his Creator.......wey dhacdaa(it happens). It's called being a flawed human being. As we all are. Every single human being and every single group of human beings that have EVER walked this earth and breathed this oxygenated atmosphere from the Big Homie Adam all the way down to us: we're all weak, fallible, & lustful(liberation-struggle/nicmatul fashuuq) creation, as shown by our father Adam when he couldn't resist temptation.

I could go on all day, erryday with more examples. The only ppl who concocted a fantasy of a mythological utopia are the literalist dogma of Orthodoxy, but I'll tell you what you already know: Ain't no-effin-body perfect(or even remotely close to perfect) up in this motherfaarax called Planet Earth, and the only folk that will claim perfection, or claim some people are "more equal"(ie, Muslims are better than non-muslims) than others are the peddlers of religious fanaticism and the messianic merchants of Apocalyptia. All six billion ppl on this Earth are exactly equal and the only thing that determines good people from bad people is not their religious beliefs or rituals, but if they do good/virtuous actions or bad/evil actions.

Ok, homie-G Shirib? We good? We good. Now let's move on the question at hand: Slavery. It was practiced by us Muslims for 14 centuries until the supposedly "morally inferior" and "going to hell" "kaafir" forced all Muslim nations to end slavery at the business end of a 19th century Navy cannon; Yet, to this very day, not a single, reputable scholar will come out and say slavery is abolished and jizya is abolished and stoning is abolished. Shameful silence for a number of factors: fear of being called a heretic-apostate, weak understanding of Islam, wariness of differeing with the so-called "best generations" and more. So we face the bitter irony of having non-Muslims surpass us in virtually every aspect of morality and humanity, and even THAT is not sufficent to stir us from a centuries-long moral failure and deep slumber.

Where do you stand on this mas'alah? Do you have the courage to say that slavery is 100% abolished and regardless of who the eff says what the eff, it ain't coming. This means that even if the Mahdi/Messiah/Whomever comes out tommorow and announces jizyah and slavery, you as Shirib will be like" Uh, nah bro, that shit stays in past and it ain't coming back"

I honestly want to know where you stand, without you hiding behind the thowb/qamees of the scholars/ulema.

[zumaale]

Leftist

Why stop at the Sahabah? Is it because they are more 'fallible' than the Prophet SAWS? If one was to apply your logic to the Prophet SAWS then one could argue that the Islam he preached (Orthodox) and his conduct towards vanquished foes was also a product of the medieval Arab society in which he lived. The reason why you constantly duck my question is that you very well know that Sahabah were for the most part following the teachings of the Prophet SAWS but you can criticise them because they are 'easy' targets. In contrast, if you were to so as much as utter a disparaging word against the Prophet SAWS, the premise of your argument collapses like a house of cards.

Unlike some of the Snetters you constantly harass with your talk of Reformation, I do not shy from the fact that slavery is sanctioned in Islam. If what has been made Xalal by the Quran and Sunnah is suddenly made Xaram by secular states and compliant clergy then where does one draw the line? Why not further dilute the Deen as practised by the Prophet SAWS in the guise of 'modernism'? If we can ignore what has been made Xalal in the Quran (slavery) then surely other aspects of the Deen can be 'reformed' as there is a religious precedent. I will be give you credit for having backed a lot off niggas into a corner with your rhetoric in regard to slavery. If they follow some of the present day Ijtihad Scholars that state it is Xaram then they have inadvertently conceded that the Deen can be 'reformed' allowing you to further attack them on other aspects of the Deen that are in need of 'reform'.

[Basra-]

Leftist

I am wondering why do u insist on Islam Reformation when u, like Ayaan Hirsi have "Left" Islam long time ago. I mean, should you really care? And if u do, Why? Have you asked yourself that question?

[jalaaludin5]

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[jalaaludin5]

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[gegiroor]

^^

This report was narrated by al-Bukhary (6922) on the authority of `Ikrimah who said: Heretics were brought before Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) and he burnt them. When Ibn `Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) was informed about this, he said, “If I were in his place, I would not have burnt them for the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) forbad this saying, “Do not torment with the torment of Allah” and I would have killed them, for the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Whoever changes his religion, kill him.”” When a deviant group called al-Saba’iyyah, who were the followers of the Jewish `Abdullah ibn Saba’, went astray and believed that Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) was a god – we seek refuge with Allah from this – he (Ali) set them on fire and said, “When I saw such an enormous evil, I set them on fire and called.

First of all, most of the people who used this report against Islam are Islamophobes. So for this guy to use against Islam is clear who he is and where his loyalties lie.

Second, as reported, there was only one person who was quoted stating it. There were no others who corroborated this report.

Third, there was no proof that Ali Binu Abii Taalib (May Allah be pleased with) did burn the corpses after they were killed in battle, or if he was going to burn them before they were killed. The scholars agree that this story is not conclusive since it was only reported by one person.

That said, Islamophobes use this report as an ammunition when they're discussing the treatment of apostates in Islam. Islam's rule on apostasy is about leaving Islam and committing sedition within a Muslim society. For instance, if someone leaves Islam in Somalia, call the people against Islam, and do all the unthinkable things that Islamophobes are doing against our beloved Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), the apostasy law is applicable to that person. In Muslim society, sedition and fitnah are not acceptable.

With respect to slavery and the liberation of slaves in Islam, it is covered here: http://www.answering-christianity.com/equality.htm. It is written by a Muslim brother who was a former Jewish rabbi. Maasha'Allah we're gaining the best of the best converts from the West, when scum like Leftist, Ayaan Hersi, X.Playa and others like them are leaving Islam.

Lastly, to the scum named Leftist, tell your Islamophobe bosses that you've been trying with your bogus 'Reformation' since the early days of Islam. Yet, Islam has been steadily growing. You can come up with any tricks in the book, but make no mistake about it: Your efforts are futile, Islam will continue to grow, Sham (The Levant) will remain in the heart of Islam, we'll never give up Beit-ul-Maqdis (aka Jerusalem) , and you will never be able to remove Jihad from Islam. The objectives of the bogus 'Reformation' is for Muslims to give up those points but if we accept those bogus demands, there is nothing left of Islam.

Desperate Leftist, your efforts of promoting 'liberalism', homosexuality, and endless insults and lies against the companions of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah) will amount to nothing. You're just a desperate man who claims to believe the same faith that he hates. What is worse than that? Fyi, a Muslim would never disparage the companions of the Prophet. No Muslim would ever do such a thing. You aint fooling anyone. Your lifestyle is unacceptable in Islam. Bye desperado!

[gegiroor]

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