Sultan Erdogan Coming to Maryland for Grand Opening of Turkish American Cultural Center

[Lamagoodle]

my dear professor some of what you are describing is I believe a misunderstood utopia with regards to the wonders of secularism and how the nordic countries function,(living in this region believe me I have a pretty good understanding of the societal reality in these countries is) rather then being 'tucked gently away' several of the nordic countries have an official state religion, ie a fusion between a modified christianity and modern governing is how they rule, ( they are not as fanatic as in pakistan because they have jobs and their bellies are full, knowing you also lieve in europe, I believe u know the capabilities of what committed previous percecutions against minorities and different people is still very much latent in Nordid/ Europe, funny thing is some of their aspects means they are practising Islam better then many muslim countries with regards to tolerance, liberty, freedom of expression ,zaqat (In this manner I can understand why some muslims misunderstand Islam with the current situation today in muslim countries and see the everchanging western fusion of christianity and seculirism as a solution,(every dog has it's day, it was not long ago they burnt women in europe, forget about the countless pogroms, holocaust, persecution of minorities.

Muslims in europe are living in a dangerous time, we are in many ways just one major happening from the mobs in european countries taking action in their hands, do you know how many asylums have been burnt in Sweden? how many mosques in France?
These people serve no role model for the Islamic world, they are simply a bread and circus absent situation away from turning against minorities once again and then eachother.

There is only one pre-caution and that is to develop deterrent capability for muslim nations, I hope Insha Allah Turkey gains this knowledge just as Pakistan, North Korea would have joined Iraq,Afghanistan had it not been for it's tiny but daunting stock of nuclear weapons-

Erdogan is a real politician he knows Turkey has no future in EU and is just working them, Turkey should also gain nuclear capability to deter the russians from drooling over Istanbul which has been their dream for a while I believe.

LOL@@@@@@ professor. I am not saaxib. I am a reer baadiye Lamagoodle guy who reads history and forms independent opinions. I do not like flock mentality and that is why I come across as an educated due. BLV me and I have read it in several books that the Nordic social welfare model is what islam is about; democracy, social democracy, equality, brotherhood etc. I read somewhere that Sayd Qudb one of the philosophical figures of the muslim brotherhood was in the Nordic countries - and the USA BY THE WAY- and got inspiration for creating a utopia islamic nation.

There is no doubt that Europeans have committed heinous crimes; colonisation, slavery, the Holocaust, eugenics etc. This is acknowledged. There is always racism in the west. But what the Europeans/west is good at is the creation of a secular state. Without the secular state Europe would have been at the mercy of 14th century Catholic church hegemony. I don't see any conflicts between having islam and a secular state. This was the case during the great days of islam. Today, what you have is that even if you create an islamic state e.g. Pakistan or even Somalia/middle east where the constitution states that this is a muslim country, you have the worst atrocities, the worst forms of governance, vicious murders; You create an islam state; someone want it to be a sunni others want it to be shia or other offshots; secterian wars; if there are only sunnis, you have another war between the sunni factions... and you have a never ending conflict.

That is the goodness with secularism; leave religion outside the public domain; you guarantee rights. Granted these could be abused misused but it is better than leaving in a religious state.

You and I live in a secular state; have got problems in whatever god we want to worship? Do we have some challenges relating to creed and colour? yes, because human beings inherently have differences and could trigger problems. But, the best country for a muslim to live in today is a SECULAR state; as a matter of fact, the statement that the best MUSLIM country today is A SECULAR state is not a logical fallacy.

The best country for mUSLIMS today is the SECULAR state.

Utopia aside

Imagine living in a "muslim" country just to take an example???? We cannot express ourselves. There are thought police everywhere. We have to conform and we lose our ability to think, create and contribute.

I am grateful that I live in a secular state. You should be grateful. Every somali should be grateful because the alternative is a religious state ; Middle east, Israel, and the rest of countries where religion does not stop at islam/christianity but mutates into cults.

I am tired of somalis and others who claim that secularism is bad and abusing the hand that feeds them. Why don't they leave? people have choices? Go to religious countries. It is simple. Or ACCEPT THE FACT Secularism is the best option of governance.

See you around..

[Lamagoodle]

I forgot to add; YOUR CLAIM THAT MUSLIMS ARE LIVING DANGEROUSLY IN EUROPE is nonsense: They are guarded by the institutions of the secular state. If we are to follow your logic and say arrivaderci to secularism, you'd have religious fanatics who will force them to convert (read what happened in Spain in the 13th century and Europe in the 17th century.

That is what is good about secularism. It is a protection against zealots and bigots.

[hangool79]

my dear professor some of what you are describing is I believe a misunderstood utopia with regards to the wonders of secularism and how the nordic countries function,(living in this region believe me I have a pretty good understanding of the societal reality in these countries is) rather then being 'tucked gently away' several of the nordic countries have an official state religion, ie a fusion between a modified christianity and modern governing is how they rule, ( they are not as fanatic as in pakistan because they have jobs and their bellies are full, knowing you also lieve in europe, I believe u know the capabilities of what committed previous percecutions against minorities and different people is still very much latent in Nordid/ Europe, funny thing is some of their aspects means they are practising Islam better then many muslim countries with regards to tolerance, liberty, freedom of expression ,zaqat (In this manner I can understand why some muslims misunderstand Islam with the current situation today in muslim countries and see the everchanging western fusion of christianity and seculirism as a solution,(every dog has it's day, it was not long ago they burnt women in europe, forget about the countless pogroms, holocaust, persecution of minorities.

Muslims in europe are living in a dangerous time, we are in many ways just one major happening from the mobs in european countries taking action in their hands, do you know how many asylums have been burnt in Sweden? how many mosques in France?
These people serve no role model for the Islamic world, they are simply a bread and circus absent situation away from turning against minorities once again and then eachother.

There is only one pre-caution and that is to develop deterrent capability for muslim nations, I hope Insha Allah Turkey gains this knowledge just as Pakistan, North Korea would have joined Iraq,Afghanistan had it not been for it's tiny but daunting stock of nuclear weapons-

Erdogan is a real politician he knows Turkey has no future in EU and is just working them, Turkey should also gain nuclear capability to deter the russians from drooling over Istanbul which has been their dream for a while I believe.

LOL@@@@@@ professor. I am not saaxib. I am a reer baadiye Lamagoodle guy who reads history and forms independent opinions. I do not like flock mentality and that is why I come across as an educated due. BLV me and I have read it in several books that the Nordic social welfare model is what islam is about; democracy, social democracy, equality, brotherhood etc. I read somewhere that Sayd Qudb one of the philosophical figures of the muslim brotherhood was in the Nordic countries - and the USA BY THE WAY- and got inspiration for creating a utopia islamic nation.

There is no doubt that Europeans have committed heinous crimes; colonisation, slavery, the Holocaust, eugenics etc. This is acknowledged. There is always racism in the west. But what the Europeans/west is good at is the creation of a secular state. Without the secular state Europe would have been at the mercy of 14th century Catholic church hegemony. I don't see any conflicts between having islam and a secular state. This was the case during the great days of islam. Today, what you have is that even if you create an islamic state e.g. Pakistan or even Somalia/middle east where the constitution states that this is a muslim country, you have the worst atrocities, the worst forms of governance, vicious murders; You create an islam state; someone want it to be a sunni others want it to be shia or other offshots; secterian wars; if there are only sunnis, you have another war between the sunni factions... and you have a never ending conflict.

That is the goodness with secularism; leave religion outside the public domain; you guarantee rights. Granted these could be abused misused but it is better than leaving in a religious state.

You and I live in a secular state; have got problems in whatever god we want to worship? Do we have some challenges relating to creed and colour? yes, because human beings inherently have differences and could trigger problems. But, the best country for a muslim to live in today is a SECULAR state; as a matter of fact, the statement that the best MUSLIM country today is A SECULAR state is not a logical fallacy.

The best country for mUSLIMS today is the SECULAR state.

Utopia aside

Imagine living in a "muslim" country just to take an example???? We cannot express ourselves. There are thought police everywhere. We have to conform and we lose our ability to think, create and contribute.

I am grateful that I live in a secular state. You should be grateful. Every somali should be grateful because the alternative is a religious state ; Middle east, Israel, and the rest of countries where religion does not stop at islam/christianity but mutates into cults.

See you around..

I will try to adress you in length later on, I think we agree on many things, except that I have become allergic to the constructs called secularism and democracy, I agree with some of the definitions of these contructs, but I refuse to accept them from the most corrupt region in the world, Islam in it's correct form is all about zaqat,social network, tolerance, liberty, trade and rationality we do not need to be retaught about deficient greek philosophy and constructs that we translated, protected and passed over to them (!) they do not like to be reminded about those 7 centuries between ancient world and their socalled englightment era, like all of this information just landed on their head like apples under a tree.

If you ask me there is not a single islamic nation in the world that can serve a s model state because they all have serious shortcomings, almost all perhaps with exception of Malaysia practice western conventional finance which involves riba. But it doesnt mean we should capitulate and emulate christians and jews who have long strayed away.

[hangool79]

I forgot to add; YOUR CLAIM THAT MUSLIMS ARE LIVING DANGEROUSLY IN EUROPE is nonsense: They are guarded by the institutions of the secular state. If we are to follow your logic and say arrivaderci to secularism, you'd have religious fanatics who will force them to convert (read what happened in Spain in the 13th century and Europe in the 17th century.

That is what is good about secularism. It is a protection against zealots and bigots.

I am very familiar very with the inquisition in Iberia and other less known crimes.

Muslims are living in troubled times in Europe regardless of secularity, some would say in spite of secularism, some of the most intolerant beings have sprung out of socialism, secularism and other anti religion environments, look at France and how it practies secularism, they are banning muslim artifacts only but leave out christian judean artifacts, (come on sxb) you know where this is going

[TheGrumpyGeeljire]

In my opinion, the western media is biased in its reporting from/on Turkey and Russia. It seems that the "gates of Vienna" in the 16th century is something that has shaped the west. The same goes for Russia (there is Russia-phobia). Every dhuuso about Turkey is reported. Nothing positive about Turkey is reported.

Turkey has had successive military coups. Its economy was in shambles and human rights abuses (in particular towards the Kurds).

Turkey has repeatedly applied for EU membership; many countries in Eastern Europe with poor economies, human rights records and weak institutions have become members. Maybe Tenju Cila, the PM of the 1990s was right; the EU, she said, was a christian club. BTW; Turkish has supporters; Sweden, UK, Holland and the northern European countries. But Catholic Europe still remember the siege of Vienna in 1586(?)

Then Fethullah Gülen instigates a movement that is about renewal; according to him, countries with muslim majorities are backward because they abandoned science/technology. The movement gains momentum; schools, organisations and political movements (grass roots) are started. No more fuzzy subjects (humanities/arts/social science) and religion in schools.

The AKP - founded by Gülen supporters brings sweeping changes including democracy. The Turkish economy (real GDP) doubled in less than 10 years. The Kurds get rights they never dreamed about. The Turkish economy was predicted to bypass that of many nations and might in a few years become the 1th-13th largest economy in the world.

Then the nonsense about "Sultan" " Ottoman" " dictatorship" etc became part and parcel of the discourse on Turkey.

Gülen and Erdogan fall out. The war in Syria starts...

And also Erdogan has an ace in his sleeve; the refugee crises .

No doubt Erdogan is also a victim of hubris. He has also made one of the worst mistakes; shooting down of the Russia jet (Russia is an important trading partner). And there are signs towards islamisation. But all in all Turkey is doing great by all measures.

I agree with alot of what you said here, except that Turkey has supporters, some of it's biggest enemies are the protestant and secular countries such as France not just mediterrenian europe, also a major culprit and obstacle is the greece nation / cyprus which turkey karbaashed in the 70s and conquered a good chunk of cyprus because they tried to annex the whole island and was mistreating cypress turks.

I don't understand how a smart guy like you lama could take the polluted word of secularism to your heart after knowing the modus operandi of europe,it's islam today, but in reality it's about race and that's why they hate and are afraid of the seamingly white looking russians whom they are never fully easy about because they wonder how much oriental blood runs through their veins because of the mongols and huns in the past.
They cannot control such a large country hence Russia will never fully be let into the fold.

Argentina recently broke down and accepted to pay xaaram loands to sionist mafia hedgefunds, the illuminati is very real,
poor argentina

Also " Gates of Vienna" is both a rightwing site and a rightwing romanticized expression, acadademically the incident is referred to as the Siege of Vienna, don't adopt their phrases adeer

If Erdogan was a corrupt, secular general who took over Turkey through a military coup, he would've been praised by Western media and would receive a nobel peace prize and an award for 'bringing democracy to Turkey'.

The truth is that a lot of Western countries are pissed that Turkey has developed its economy at an astonishing rate over the last decade or so. They can't have that. For them, if you're the leader of a middle eastern country, you have two choices:
1. Either become their puppet and run your country into the ground economically, socially and military.
2. You're a tyrant and you're country needs a healthy dose of 'liberation' so that 'democracy' can take place.

[TheGrumpyGeeljire]

In my opinion, the western media is biased in its reporting from/on Turkey and Russia. It seems that the "gates of Vienna" in the 16th century is something that has shaped the west. The same goes for Russia (there is Russia-phobia). Every dhuuso about Turkey is reported. Nothing positive about Turkey is reported.

Turkey has had successive military coups. Its economy was in shambles and human rights abuses (in particular towards the Kurds).

Turkey has repeatedly applied for EU membership; many countries in Eastern Europe with poor economies, human rights records and weak institutions have become members. Maybe Tenju Cila, the PM of the 1990s was right; the EU, she said, was a christian club. BTW; Turkish has supporters; Sweden, UK, Holland and the northern European countries. But Catholic Europe still remember the siege of Vienna in 1586(?)

Then Fethullah Gülen instigates a movement that is about renewal; according to him, countries with muslim majorities are backward because they abandoned science/technology. The movement gains momentum; schools, organisations and political movements (grass roots) are started. No more fuzzy subjects (humanities/arts/social science) and religion in schools.

The AKP - founded by Gülen supporters brings sweeping changes including democracy. The Turkish economy (real GDP) doubled in less than 10 years. The Kurds get rights they never dreamed about. The Turkish economy was predicted to bypass that of many nations and might in a few years become the 1th-13th largest economy in the world.

Then the nonsense about "Sultan" " Ottoman" " dictatorship" etc became part and parcel of the discourse on Turkey.

Gülen and Erdogan fall out. The war in Syria starts...

And also Erdogan has an ace in his sleeve; the refugee crises .

No doubt Erdogan is also a victim of hubris. He has also made one of the worst mistakes; shooting down of the Russia jet (Russia is an important trading partner). And there are signs towards islamisation. But all in all Turkey is doing great by all measures.

I agree with alot of what you said here, except that Turkey has supporters, some of it's biggest enemies are the protestant and secular countries such as France not just mediterrenian europe, also a major culprit and obstacle is the greece nation / cyprus which turkey karbaashed in the 70s and conquered a good chunk of cyprus because they tried to annex the whole island and was mistreating cypress turks.

I don't understand how a smart guy like you lama could take the polluted word of secularism to your heart after knowing the modus operandi of europe,it's islam today, but in reality it's about race and that's why they hate and are afraid of the seamingly white looking russians whom they are never fully easy about because they wonder how much oriental blood runs through their veins because of the mongols and huns in the past.
They cannot control such a large country hence Russia will never fully be let into the fold.

Argentina recently broke down and accepted to pay xaaram loands to sionist mafia hedgefunds, the illuminati is very real,
poor argentina

Also " Gates of Vienna" is both a rightwing site and a rightwing romanticized expression, acadademically the incident is referred to as the Siege of Vienna, don't adopt their phrases adeer

If Erdogan was a corrupt, secular general who took over Turkey through a military coup, he would've been praised by Western media and would receive a nobel peace prize and an award for 'bringing democracy to Turkey'.

The truth is that a lot of Western countries are pissed that Turkey has developed its economy at an astonishing rate over the last decade or so. They can't have that. For them, if you're the leader of a middle eastern country, you have two choices:
1. Either become their puppet and run your country into the ground economically, socially and military.
2. You're a tyrant and you're country needs a healthy dose of 'liberation' so that 'democracy' can take place.

[Lamagoodle]

I will try to adress you in length later on, I think we agree on many things, except that I have become allergic to the constructs called secularism and democracy, I agree with some of the definitions of these contructs, but I refuse to accept them from the most corrupt region in the world, Islam in it's correct form is all about zaqat,social network, tolerance, liberty, trade and rationality we do not need to be retaught about deficient greek philosophy and constructs that we translated, protected and passed over to them

If you ask me there is not a single islamic nation in the world that can serve a s model state because they all have serious shortcomings, almost all perhaps with exception of Malaysia practice western conventional finance which involves riba. But it doesnt mean we should capitulate and emulate christians and jews who have long strayed away.

We could debate secularism as a construct. That is an academic discussion and my academic bank on this issue is scanty. Also secularism is not the same as democracy which is an essentially contested concept. A person who is a staunch supporter of social democracy will claim that democracy is what islam preaches ; taxes, social networks, tolerance, liberty (this is not available in the dominating discourse by the way). Ancient greek scripts have certainly played a role in the political philosophy of Europe but you'd be surprised that Islam has influenced a lot).

The western model is the dominant design. This is natural. In the 8-12th century, it was the Andalus model characterised by tolerance, knowledge and science. In the 13th-16th century it was Catholism in Europe and islam and other religions.

In the begining of the 20th century, the Ottoman empire the last islamic empire was defeated (BTW; arabs have never been fond of the Ottoman empire). What you have is the western model. It gave us Nazi Germany, participated in slavery, scrambles for Africa and elsewhere but it has the ABILITY for renewal and learning. That is the secular model. It is about tolerance, diversity and keeping religion at bay - outside the public domain.

On paper, there are many muslim countries; do you want to live in them? The obvious answer is NO. We don't know the future, but at the moment the best model is the secular model. We are lying - as many of our people do- to the point of blasphemy if we condemn the hand that feeds us. We are a nation that are not thankful. we should say alxamdulilah for living in secular countries, where we can worship whatever(whoever we want.That is secularism. But keep it out of the public domain. Is it perfect? of course not? is there something else that is better? Not at the moment.

See you around...

[Lamagoodle]

I forgot to add; YOUR CLAIM THAT MUSLIMS ARE LIVING DANGEROUSLY IN EUROPE is nonsense: They are guarded by the institutions of the secular state. If we are to follow your logic and say arrivaderci to secularism, you'd have religious fanatics who will force them to convert (read what happened in Spain in the 13th century and Europe in the 17th century.

That is what is good about secularism. It is a protection against zealots and bigots.

I am very familiar very with the inquisition in Iberia and other less known crimes.

Muslims are living in troubled times in Europe regardless of secularity, some would say in spite of secularism, some of the most intolerant beings have sprung out of socialism, secularism and other anti religion environments, look at France and how it practies secularism, they are banning muslim artifacts only but leave out christian judean artifacts, (come on sxb) you know where this is going

I was leaving but I had to respond to this; where do you get your information from saaxib? The ban is for every religious artefact (judaism, christianity, islam etc). That is the best thing with secularism ; if there is a ban it is for every religion.

A religious state will ban artifacts of one religion but the secular state applies a blanket ban.

Indeed, the impact of the ban is faced by muslims- women in particular- more than other religious community. But what has secularism got to do with that? The muslims have a choice; they could leave France. ABOVE all; the muslim name has been tarnished by people what to create utopian islamic state; The french and others, will given these circumstances use the leverage granted by the constitution to mitigate the danger.

[hangool79]

I forgot to add; YOUR CLAIM THAT MUSLIMS ARE LIVING DANGEROUSLY IN EUROPE is nonsense: They are guarded by the institutions of the secular state. If we are to follow your logic and say arrivaderci to secularism, you'd have religious fanatics who will force them to convert (read what happened in Spain in the 13th century and Europe in the 17th century.

That is what is good about secularism. It is a protection against zealots and bigots.

I am very familiar very with the inquisition in Iberia and other less known crimes.

Muslims are living in troubled times in Europe regardless of secularity, some would say in spite of secularism, some of the most intolerant beings have sprung out of socialism, secularism and other anti religion environments, look at France and how it practies secularism, they are banning muslim artifacts only but leave out christian judean artifacts, (come on sxb) you know where this is going

I was leaving but I had to respond to this; where do you get your information from saaxib? The ban is for every religious artefact (judaism, christianity, islam etc). That is the best thing with secularism ; if there is a ban it is for every religion.

A religious state will ban artifacts of one religion but the secular state applies a blanket ban.

Indeed, the impact of the ban is faced by muslims- women in particular- more than other religious community. But what has secularism got to do with that? The muslims have a choice; they could leave France. ABOVE all; the muslim name has been tarnished by people what to create utopian islamic state; The french and others, will given these circumstances use the leverage granted by the constitution to mitigate the danger.

It is a blanket ban de jure, but you and I know very well it is a de facto reaction, a measurement taken against muslims specifically, they haven't either banned crosses or star of David necklace,it allthough the law is a narrowly defined reassertion of the religious neutrality within French public schools (Brookings,04 it is very much aimed at one specific group, hence no cadaalad, young muslim girls get thrown out of classrooms while french non jewish parliamentarians where the kippah in pride and support (yet no action taken lool)

don't take them for a final and perfect blueprint, China haven't, alot of countries are working to find their middleways.
Least the Islamic world should do is to adopt a plagiarized secular democratic concept when we already have democracy, secularism, freedom of expression in our deen, I agree that we should strive to reach a western standard in living quality, but there is no need to emulate those who have plagiarised us, we must yet learn and correct our mistakes for the last centuries, but invest in implementing a blueprint of western model is not the solution.

We already had everything from Geneva conventions, to freedom of religion in our holy book,

Example

There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.
Sura Al Baqaray 2:256

just an example

see you around professor

[FAH1223]

What are the chances of Erdogan's old amigo, Fethulah Gulen, being invited to this event?

Gulen isnt too far away he's in Pennsylvania

I've heard his house has armed guards 24/7

[FAH1223]

[barbarossa]

[hangool79]

A muslim woman got run over by a car today in BELGIUM (another thread) I hate to be wrong, but yes muslims in Europe are living in dangerous time. My prediction from previous days has been spot on. Just a small comment