Erdogan has sacked 15,000 workers in the education sector

[Lamagoodle]

Grumpygeeljire,
The Ottoman empire was not 100% sharia based. It was pragmatic. I have read scholarly material that even suggest it was secular ( watch Raage Omaar's documentary where the notion of the sick man of Europe is discussed). There are some that claim that it's demise came when Sharia became the norm and when Arabism entered its domain. It was also not based on ethnicity. Tolerance, science and rationality flourished under the Ottoman empire when the west was governed by theological nonsense. If you study medicine today, the books on anatomy, internal medicine etc were written during the ottoman empire. What happened to islam after that? It is in this context that the Ottomans should be discussed.

Sharia remains a utopia. Most of the countries that use it are not GOOD benchmarks. No, thanks. I would rather live in a secular state than the middle east and parts of Africa where Sharia is the discourse.

The ottoman empire was betrayed by the Arabs. Kamal Attaturk realised this; this is the foundation of the Turkish success recently. Secular institutions with a flavour of islamic morals/values.

By the way, the success that the country witnessed during the past decades can largely be attributed to the spirit of the Gulen movement; that corruption and other ills are not good; that science is the key to success, that merely reading the quran and reciting it will not build a nation. Pseudoscience out, natural science in. That was the motto.

I will certainly watch that documentary! Your perspective on this topic has only made me more curious about the history of the Ottoman Empire

This is the first part. Watch all the three parts and tell us what you think.

[hangool79]

Turkey has a large and secret Alevi population, these are being punished now.

[LiquidHYDROGEN]

Ataturk was a hero who saved Turkey from being fragmented by the European powers. Without him, Turkey wouldn't exist. It would been parcelled off to Italy, Greece, Russia etc. Secularism is the reason Turkey is currently enjoying economic success and power.

[GIJaamac]

Ataturk was a hero who saved Turkey from being fragmented by the European powers. Without him, Turkey wouldn't exist. It would been parcelled off to Italy, Greece, Russia etc. Secularism is the reason Turkey is currently enjoying economic success and power.

Why don't you just come out of the closet just like your adeer Xplaya. Believe me, nobody will be surprised considering that you're from SL.

[Xildiiid]

^
lol.


Xiinow Mozambique what's up with the hostilities man? Bacda iska fur noo

[LiquidHYDROGEN]

Ataturk was a hero who saved Turkey from being fragmented by the European powers. Without him, Turkey wouldn't exist. It would been parcelled off to Italy, Greece, Russia etc. Secularism is the reason Turkey is currently enjoying economic success and power.

Why don't you just come out of the closet just like your adeer Xplaya. Believe me, nobody will be surprised considering that you're from SL.

Go and tell the residents of Marka, Konfuria to "come out of the closet". Nobody is surprised that daboole/niiko culture comes from Hawiyeland.

You probably even have isbaaros for men's futo.

[GIJaamac]

^^ I meant as in gaalnimo not faggotry.

[gurey25]

There are some that claim that it's demise came when Sharia became the norm and when Arabism entered its domain.

This is a highly dubius claim , since Shareeca was the law during the foundation of the Ottoman state in 1300.
Shareeca law is a topic that is talked allot about by people with zero knowledge of law in general..
If you talk to a lawyer, he will tell you that shareeca law is an advanced and very flexible tool, and this is true when wielded by someone educated and capable, not the brain dead morons we have today..
He will also tell you that it is a common law based on precendent, much like Anglo-saxon common law.

People confuse shareeca with the small subset of it called hudud law, they are not one and the same,
shareeca is much more than that and can function well in a modern society..
Ottoman penal law which was not based on European culture but their own and shareeca was allot more progressive than you can imagine.
In 1856 homosexuality was decriminalized for example and the death penalty was made very difficult to use.
Isreal in 1950 adopted the 1856 Ottoman Penal law unchanged, and it still is the law today,
while all the arab countries around it have penal law imposed by their former colonial rulers to subdue the population.
This is why as a palestinian or a jordanian or an egyptian or syrian, you would choose to be tried in a Isreali court and senteced there rather than in your own country because it is much much more lenient, and ironically it is an organic development from the region and sourced ultimatley from shareeca..

Tolerance, science and rationality flourished under the Ottoman empire when the west was governed by theological nonsense. If you study medicine today, the books on anatomy, internal medicine etc were written during the ottoman empire. What happened to islam after that? It is in this context that the Ottomans should be discussed.

I think you are confusiIslamic civilization in the past i.e from 800-1300 , 500 years when they were the height of Scientific, social and economic progress. There was nothing new in chemistry till Lavasiur in france, before the 1750's there was nothing new in the field of chemistry or medicine and the textbooks are fromm the 9th and 12th centuries.
The Ottomans were not scientifically or technologically minded, their secret was efficient administration, and open mindedness.
They were open to new ideas and allowed talented people from all over the muslim world and Europe to live and thrive in their state.
Much like present day USA, they gained allot from the brain drain.
Ottoman cannons and guns were built by Hungarian, and German gunsmiths, its ships were built by the best of the shipbuilders from greece and Italy, mostly venetians and Genoa.
Mozarbic and Jewish refugees from Spain tens of thousands of them were welcomed by the Ottomans, the Sultan infact funded their relocation
to Istanbul and Salonika from state funds.
These refugees brought the superb textile , papermaking, dying , ceramics and metal working industries from Andalusia.

The ottoman empire was betrayed by the Arabs. Kamal Attaturk realised this; this is the foundation of the Turkish success recently. Secular institutions with a flavour of islamic morals/values.

I have to disagree with you again today,
firstly only a small minority of arabs rebelled in 1915, the majority were loyal till the Ottomans were defeated in 1918.
Still allot of arab officers chose to flee British and french occupied territory and participate in the Turkish war of independence alongisde Kemal Attaturk and Inonu.
There was not much arab nationalism during WW1, Arab nationalism was an exclusivley Christian thing, with a smattering of secular muslims.
The centre of arab nationalism was beirut.
The rank and file of the arabs in the Ottoman army stayed loyal till the very end, and there was little public support for the Sharifs rebellion
outside of his own tribes.

[FAH1223]

Ataturk was a hero who saved Turkey from being fragmented by the European powers. Without him, Turkey wouldn't exist. It would been parcelled off to Italy, Greece, Russia etc. Secularism is the reason Turkey is currently enjoying economic success and power.

He did save Turkey.

It's also true secularism shielded Turkey from the Saudi influences that reached the whole world from 1970 onwards.

But the secular elite in Turkey were not the drivers to economic success. It was the conservative Muslims in industry, small business and technology that drove economic growth. They went to schools abroad, know more languages.

The secularists were attached to state owned enterprises and rarely ventured out of Turkey for education cause they weren't discriminated. That's why Muslims studied tougher majors like engineering and often went to universities abroad.

Here in Maryland where I live, there's a bunch of Turks who mostly stay to themselves. All well educated, multilingual, working at places like NASA and no surprise they're all AKP supporters who go to tithe Diyanet Center that Erdogan opened this year.

[Jaidi]

TheGrumplyGeeljire,
You have a point. There is no doubt that the west is hypocritical. To the ”west”, the Gates of Vienna , 1683, is still potent. There is a “Turkish” odium ever since the Ottoman army besieged Vienna. There is no doubt about. There is also a Russian fear (fear of the red).

It seems that these two issues govern the media logic of the day. It is a simple logic; When the editors are planning the talking points of the day, they start with home news, then USA news (by the way rightly so because without the USA, there is no west), then ask themselves the question; any bad things to report on Turkey? Russia? Any suffering to report on Africa? (let us report on how they die and not how they live; most of African leaders/countries prove their thesis of the day by the way, so they do not need to dig deeper)

Following the coup, the western media narrative has been based on the shortcomings of Erdogan instead of the coup. Especially when democracy is the “bible” the focus has been on Erdogan. China is not a democracy but no one dares to report this because Chinese money is the engine that propels western economies. Hypocrisy is the word.

Every reporting has “we condemn the coup..but…” There is no BUT! It is a coup against a democratically elected government.

Erdogan is an elected leader. The west should support him. Under Erdogan Turkey has doubled its GDP, became a member of the exclusive G20 club, human right record has been improved and there are reforms. The Kurds got some rights although this past year, it seems these rights have been eroded.
If the west is sincere about democracy, they should focus on Hungary – a member of the EU- which is governed by a nazist party. Orban is the new Hitler. Also in Poland, there is a fascist government. I don’t think the focus of the western media will be on the shortcomings of democracy if there was a coup in Poland and Hungary.

Turkey with all its democratic defects is a better democracy than most of the Eastern European members. The Eastern European EU members are corrupt, fascists and theologically pathologic.

About the coup: I don’t think the Gulen movement was behind it. It seems that Erdogan needed the coup to uproot the movement. In the long run, this will create a huge problem. There are signs that the coup has become the carte blanch for Erdogan to take revenge on Gulen and the opposition; why should civil servants (not military) become the target? School leaders, civil servants, university deans are being rounded up. This move shows that Erdogan wants revenge on the movement. By doing this, he is validating the western narrative about him being a divisive individual who discards human rights.

One final thought; Secularism is the answer. You cannot build a country on theocracy. Turkey is still a secular state and I hope it will remain that way. Mustafa Kamal Atatürk laid the foundation for a modern state; liberal, secular and distanced from Arabs. It should stay that way. I do also hope that the Kurds are given their rights.

P.s. Almost 2 000 Somali students in Turkey with fellowships from Gulen risk losing their scholarships. This is the tragedy of the coup as regards Somalis. Also in Somalia, the movement provided education and healthcare.

Lama, the scholarships are paid by the state not the Gulen movement, although some went to Gulen universities.

BTW its the consensus of most Turkish secularists that the Gulenists were behind the coup- its why the CHP also opposed it. The coup attempt actually ensures that securalists will hold power in the military again. It was the Gulen movement that was behind the Ergenekon arrests, all of which have been dropped since. Secularists dislike the Gulenists even more than the AKP. Erdogan has also reappointed many generals who were arrested under those investigations in recent days.

Turkey is not a black or white battle between secularists vs Islamists anymore.

[gurey25]

After ergenekon scandal, Erdogan started getting closer to the secularist Officers and brought them back from the cold.
Erdogan needed them as a bulwark against the Gulenists..

You can see that Secularists in the army, the CHP are solidly with Erdogan and AKP,

This was a badly executed coup attempt due too desperation.
Erdogan was tightening the noose, everyday hundred of Gulenists were being fired in every part of society.
Those officers in the coup attempt were all on the list to be fired next, it was move now or risk their careers.
It looks like erdogan had advanced warning of the coup and took advantage of it...

There is a mass purge of Gulenists all over Turkey.


funny thing that is not reported by western media, is that the Saudis and Eamaratis were very very tight with the gulenists..
and according to the famous saudi twitter rumour monger (Mujtahid), the UAE was behind the Coup attempt along with the Saudis blessing.
and since this was the airforce doing the coup, you cannot eliminate the US, because the airforce has always been 100% under US i.e NATO control.

this explains the events at the Incrilik airbase..
shutting off electricity and water to the base...

[Jaidi]

After ergenekon scandal, Erdogan started getting closer to the secularist Officers and brought them back from the cold.
Erdogan needed them as a bulwark against the Gulenists..

You can see that Secularists in the army, the CHP are solidly with Erdogan and AKP,

This was a badly executed coup attempt due too desperation.
Erdogan was tightening the noose, everyday hundred of Gulenists were being fired in every part of society.
Those officers in the coup attempt were all on the list to be fired next, it was move now or risk their careers.
It looks like erdogan had advanced warning of the coup and took advantage of it...

There is a mass purge of Gulenists all over Turkey.


funny thing that is not reported by western media, is that the Saudis and Eamaratis were very very tight with the gulenists..

The Saudis arent anymore. Turkey and Saudi have had a reapprochement and are actually quite close again. Erdogan has visited Saudi at least 4 times in the past year and King Salman has visited Turkey twice.

The Saudis arrested a Turkish military attache at the Kuwaiti embassy, who was transiting through Saudi to flee West after the coup: http://english.alarabiya.net/en/webtv/r ... uwait.html

Yes, like I said the secularists are allied with Erdogan on this issue. All of the generals arrested under Ergenekon had their charges dropped last year. The Gulenist purge has been going on for two years now but this just accelerated it. Of those 15,000 teachers almost all are from Gulenist schools. People dont realize that Turkey has a massive public sector and while the numbers are big, its been a targeted crackdown, and its why the general pop isnt really outraged. BTW the CHP is having an anti coup rally at Taksim this weekend.

[Lamagoodle]

Gurey,
Read some of these references; The first two are available without paying a cent.

Nadolski, D. G. (1977). Ottoman and secular civil law. International Journal of Middle East Studies, 8(04), 517-543.

Shaw, S. J., & Shaw, E. K. (1977). History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey: Volume 2, Reform, Revolution, and Republic: The Rise of Modern Turkey 1808-1975 (Vol. 11). Cambridge University Press.

Courbage, Y., & Fargues, P. (1997). Christians and Jews Under Islam.(trans. Judy Mabro). London and New York: IB Taurus.

Zilfi, M. C. (1988). The politics of piety: the Ottoman ulema in the Postclassical Age (1600-1800) (No. 8). Bibliotheca Islamica.

Karpat, K. H. (2015). Turkey's Politics. Princeton University Press.

Davison, R. H. (2011). Essays in Ottoman and Turkish history, 1774-1923: the impact of the West (Vol. 16). University of Texas Press.

• Science among the Ottomans: The Cultural Creation and Exchange of Knowledge by Miri Shefer-Mossensohn, 2015, University of Texas Press

You'd also note that there is ample evidence that the demise of the Ottoman empire followed the arabisation of the empire

[hangool79]

lamagoodle what are your thoughts on Turkeys huge and secret minority, the Alevis who are believed to be somewhere between 10 - 20 million,

[Lamagoodle]

TheGrumplyGeeljire,
You have a point. There is no doubt that the west is hypocritical. To the ”west”, the Gates of Vienna , 1683, is still potent. There is a “Turkish” odium ever since the Ottoman army besieged Vienna. There is no doubt about. There is also a Russian fear (fear of the red).

It seems that these two issues govern the media logic of the day. It is a simple logic; When the editors are planning the talking points of the day, they start with home news, then USA news (by the way rightly so because without the USA, there is no west), then ask themselves the question; any bad things to report on Turkey? Russia? Any suffering to report on Africa? (let us report on how they die and not how they live; most of African leaders/countries prove their thesis of the day by the way, so they do not need to dig deeper)

Following the coup, the western media narrative has been based on the shortcomings of Erdogan instead of the coup. Especially when democracy is the “bible” the focus has been on Erdogan. China is not a democracy but no one dares to report this because Chinese money is the engine that propels western economies. Hypocrisy is the word.

Every reporting has “we condemn the coup..but…” There is no BUT! It is a coup against a democratically elected government.

Erdogan is an elected leader. The west should support him. Under Erdogan Turkey has doubled its GDP, became a member of the exclusive G20 club, human right record has been improved and there are reforms. The Kurds got some rights although this past year, it seems these rights have been eroded.
If the west is sincere about democracy, they should focus on Hungary – a member of the EU- which is governed by a nazist party. Orban is the new Hitler. Also in Poland, there is a fascist government. I don’t think the focus of the western media will be on the shortcomings of democracy if there was a coup in Poland and Hungary.

Turkey with all its democratic defects is a better democracy than most of the Eastern European members. The Eastern European EU members are corrupt, fascists and theologically pathologic.

About the coup: I don’t think the Gulen movement was behind it. It seems that Erdogan needed the coup to uproot the movement. In the long run, this will create a huge problem. There are signs that the coup has become the carte blanch for Erdogan to take revenge on Gulen and the opposition; why should civil servants (not military) become the target? School leaders, civil servants, university deans are being rounded up. This move shows that Erdogan wants revenge on the movement. By doing this, he is validating the western narrative about him being a divisive individual who discards human rights.

One final thought; Secularism is the answer. You cannot build a country on theocracy. Turkey is still a secular state and I hope it will remain that way. Mustafa Kamal Atatürk laid the foundation for a modern state; liberal, secular and distanced from Arabs. It should stay that way. I do also hope that the Kurds are given their rights.

P.s. Almost 2 000 Somali students in Turkey with fellowships from Gulen risk losing their scholarships. This is the tragedy of the coup as regards Somalis. Also in Somalia, the movement provided education and healthcare.

Lama, the scholarships are paid by the state not the Gulen movement, although some went to Gulen universities.

BTW its the consensus of most Turkish secularists that the Gulenists were behind the coup- its why the CHP also opposed it. The coup attempt actually ensures that securalists will hold power in the military again. It was the Gulen movement that was behind the Ergenekon arrests, all of which have been dropped since. Secularists dislike the Gulenists even more than the AKP. Erdogan has also reappointed many generals who were arrested under those investigations in recent days.

Turkey is not a black or white battle between secularists vs Islamists anymore.

Jaidi, not true. There are three organisation 1) Diyanet, a foundation that is run by the ministry of religious affairs 2) Gulen's charity and c) organisations supported by both Gulen and Diyanet. Most of the somali kids are in in 1 and 2. Some of the somali students went to Gulen schools and universities. These students are paid a monthly stipend + housing costs by the movement directly. The latest reports is that many of their teachers, their schools and the whole support infrastructure has vanished.

On the issue of whether the Gulen movement is secular or not, my impression is that it is not a secular one. But an a reformist islamic movement;They view Science, technology and maths as competitive advantage.