I am actually genuinely curious; if you don't support Somaliland, is there amy outcome that would change your mind?

[Gubbet]

And Saddam, you are completely missing the point with your Gedo bombing comparison.

1. It is not for YOU and I to decide for "THEM." It is for THEM to decide for THEMSELVES.

2. Whether Gedo is being bombed or not is irrelevant to the point of THEM deciding for THEMSELVES about equity that is indepedent TO Gedo and is entirely THEIRS to interact with.

3. However, since the comparison was made, Gedo is not asking or contesting to leave or separate from Somalia so the entire analogy was incrogeuent.

[nine]

I understand SL mentality and sympthaize with them but no Country wants to lose land apart from Malaysia kicking out Singapore.
10% of the World trade is through the Suez Canal No sane diplomat or military leader would give up access to the Red Sea.
I am being a bit two faced because if Marehan and Isaaq switched places I would be a staunch secessionist.

Ofc a Reer Kooshin would have the most logical argument for Unionism. It isn’t strategic viable for Somaliland to be a country. Federalism is their own play. I’ll give them capital. They’ll know what to do with it. I prefer Isaaqs because they are the closet to Daroods in dhaqan and nidaam.

If SL happened in a different Country the army would pulverize them (eg Iraq) or the government would militarize the area (eg Pakistan). Difference is Somalia is a failed state. Heck even Iraq as a failed state never signed away Kurdistan.

"They should decide for themselves" "No compulsion or force" "Sef determination" is sheeko aan jirin. Tell that to Iraq Turkey Syria Pakistan Mali.

[STARKAST]

I understand SL mentality and sympthaize with them but no Country wants to lose land apart from Malaysia kicking out Singapore.
10% of the World trade is through the Suez Canal No sane diplomat or military leader would give up access to the Red Sea.
I am being a bit two faced because if Marehan and Isaaq switched places I would be a staunch secessionist.

Ofc a Reer Kooshin would have the most logical argument for Unionism. It isn’t strategic viable for Somaliland to be a country. Federalism is their own play. I’ll give them capital. They’ll know what to do with it. I prefer Isaaqs because they are the closet to Daroods in dhaqan and nidaam.

If SL happened in a different Country the army would pulverize them (eg Iraq) or the government would send in the military (eg Pakistan). Difference is Somalia is a failed state. Heck even Iraq as a failed state never signed away Kurdistan.

"They should decide for themselves" "No compulsion or force" "Sef determination" is sheeko aan jirin. Tell that to Iraq Turkey Syria Pakistan Mali.

Exactly !

And this is what Siyad Barre tried to do against the SNM terrorists. Which is state violence.

Disclaimer : I do not condone loss of innocent life.

[Gubbet]

It’s quite simple.

Balkanisation will be end of Somalia.
Why would Puntland stay ? Jubbaland will be annexed by Kenya.
1 clan cannot dictate to the ethnic group called Somali.

Reer Sanaag is in PL. *Segments* of Reer Sool is on payroll.

This is a dysfunctional state.

The status quo shall remain the same for a long time.

I propose the obvious answer proper power sharing according to pure and simple population.

So I am not going to debate this (odd that I would be making the debate FOR in this instance) as I merely wished to solicit your input, but I will do a very quick clarification;

1. Whether one thinks it merits the power to effect unilateral abrogation of the act of union or not, let us trt to be real with each other on this side and actually recognize what is a reality; Somaliland has a legal foundation quite separate to and in fact opposite to any other single component of former Italian Somaliland. It is not a case of balkanization---thet ironically seems to be the forming Confederacy. Somalliland singularly and uniquely would simply being withdrawing from a voluntary merger---as happened between Senagal and Gambia, Egypt and Syria, Pakistan and Bangladesh.

2. Kenyan would be an illegal declaration of war in controventiom to all international, regional, and continental order including its own entire binding relationship qith its own treaties.

I think, like the little surprise Tigray and Ethiopia exploding star, it is more likely chance of the LUO Big Bang occuring in Kenya (considering how further alienated Nyanzand Central are becoming from each other) than any of Kenya's shenanigans in Somalia coming to fruition.

There is a Bang Bang just waiting for a flicker in Kenya and it is not even Northeastern that holds the spark.

It is Central (Kikuyu) + Rift (Kalenjin) causing Nyanza (Luo and Luhya) immediately followed by Coast (Majikenda) to pull the lever.

Kiss the Cushites good a seconnd later as Ethiopia pulls on ita natural relationship with Eastern through Mooyaale and Somalia pulls Northeastern through Mandera and Garissa.

I will NEVER for the life of me ever understand how the most naturally realistic "MAN IN EMPTY SUIT" regionally ever made the decision to effect the same spoil MOST LIKELY to destroy it than anyone else in the region.

[ReturnOfMariixmaan]

Saddam, the same way I disdain when I talk about anyone but Marehan having primacy to inform what our equity is the same principle I reserve for Isaaq to inform what they're equity is.

Berbera is theirs, not ours. Even Somalia the state can't claim to own it more than Isaaq since we abolished Somalia itself to revert back to our clan sovereignty.

The entire point of federalism is recognition "Somalia" itself is a contract only made possible by the Clans as shareholder.

Isaaq are not a shareholder of the Somalia formed in Arta and Embagathi, let us be real.

Without even going into anything else, Somalia wouldn't get any benefit from Berbera or Gulf of Aden anyhow having refused recognition of separation.

There would only be two options;

1. Somalia would "contain" Somaliland meaning not engaging--- like right now---which would have Berbera and Gulf of Aden outside of Somalia's control to begin with.

2. Or Somalia would *engage" aka war and conflict. In that case, not only would Berbera amd Gul of Aden be even less viable use economically, but this option would be even unthinkable, intolerable, absolutely mind-blowing ridiculous.

Realistically, I think what Somalia should be preparing its citizens for is not trying to limite Somaliland's self determination but instead pushing for an expansion of that same self-determination to all the communities and components of Somaliland through a credible, mutually supported current referedum effective the point nat negotiations.

And I would not be politically immature about this point if I were the Somaliland lads as this is the bare minimum we all know Somalia would condition to the negotiations if and when Somalia is political mature amd strong enough to accept the inevitability of that table.

I caught your lil liberal dig upping of my old fkd savageness lmao. Funny we finally have ideological differences. I’m moderate on Somaliland, I acknowledge the genocide and the poor decision making towards the end of Kacaan. But does that warrant us the South letting them go? Brother Gedo is getting bombed day and night. I have empathy that I didn’t before, that I have now. I was a hardliner on Union. Now I’m more pragmatic and understand why their hardliners hate Siad Barre. But he fought for the same principle that Abiy is fighting for in Tigray. Both were ugly demonstrative displays of gross state power. But if we let go of Somaliland, what’s stopping Puntland, Hirshabelle, Jubaland, etc from doing the same? I acknowledge the clan federalism. What it is missing is a Napoleonic code and a new Bill of Rights and US constitution. The 13 colonies were like Somalia today until they came together and wrote the Articles of Confederation and the US constitution. We need law that everybody accepts and order in being a country that acknowledges the ugly nature of its past and present as well. Konfuur needs to humble themselves and give the keys to the kingdom to Somalilanders whether that is Isaaqs or Harti or Gadabursi. Reer Waqooyi should run the country for a bit. The Konfuur is a utter failure and shitshow. That’s my instinctual reply. I’ll answer more structured with ur reply.

#YeRantOver

It was a topping on the creme although none would have been the wiser if you hadn't alluded to yourseld as I purposely left out the address.

And Saddam, we have had significant ideological divergence outside of our shared hawkish/Right-wing views non Marehan equity (as every Somali should be of their community and in fact I literally recognize as an inherent right of Isaaq over their political future).

I use divergence and not disagreement, because it is mostly me with the very strong, ideological espoused position when we see differently. You are actually more realistic as I said before and cognizant of nuance. It is very odd Saddam, the public impression of you through fkds and all are very ironic when I honestly describe you as one of the most sensitive or perceptive individuals to nuance in very contested positions. It is why you are very well suited to peacemaker or enforcer.

I am learning to not be so rigid or dogmatic over ideological positions, but the 5 star theory, nationalism, irredentism, the discrepancy between how far clan can have primacy as a risk to national strategy ala Janan, even what is forgivable in political expression that is diverse vs uniform are some of a number of major divergence we have im recent times.

First off I don’t believe in 5 star nationalism. I believe in a 2 star nationalism. I’m for giving Somaliland more political power in the Union. They are right, the inception of the Somali state was built on dulmi and qiyaano. It’s the Italian mafia mindset. No doubt. I’m influenced greatly by the Italians. The public perception of me is a Neo-Kacaanist. No I’m not. I’m influenced by it but no I’m not a Kacaanist. That’s a simplistic reading of me. I’m far more cunning and shrewd than that. I’m very liberal towards other Somalis. But they are very conservative towards us and even hateful. It’s gotten to the point to the people are happy at the slaughter of our people in Gedo. I’m not a Kacaanist. NGM political ideology is built on the shoulders of Adan Loow not Siad Barre. While NGM does have Kacaanist influence in the national security realm. We are progressive in human rights, democracy, modernization of the country, social democratic in basic necessities. I believe in traditional hierarchy this is where I’m influenced by Somaliland and their idea of a “Guurti” - body that checks the excesses of parliament. And I’m big believer in constitutional law or Xeer. With that I’m a strong proponent of a STRONG judiciary this where SYL failed - the power was too centralized from the start and thus a Somali elite corrupted and played with the future of millions. This allowed a strong man to come and usurp all power and centralized it even further. Why because of the failure of the elites to create progress and economic development for the people. I’m a big man politics type of guy. But I prefer to do it via the power of the people via a plebiscite. They give me the power not I take it nor no man takes it. There should be checks and balances. The elites in governmental body need to be checked by a robust deep state that ensures the country never fails in the hands of foreigners who try to play favorites. This why I’m a child of the Marehan Union Party. Marehan interest is a strong Somalia because Marehan is the traditional leader of the Somali race but not to the point there’s no self care or rational self interest. That’s why the Kacaan failed. It wasn’t built on the indigenous power dynamics and legal system. I’m a strong proponent of Somali legalism. And a big opponent of Somali revisionist thought on us because it blamed everything on us thus opening the door for others to take advantage and try to erase in land, history, power, finances, and etc. that’s why I’m a big reactionary to the current system built. And irredentism? Don’t ask me that question, the greatest folly of the Kacaan was that but I digress. I’ll share that much.

[ReturnOfMariixmaan]

And Saddam, you are completely missing the point with your Gedo bombing comparison.

1. It is not for YOU and I to decide for "THEM." It is for THEM to decide for THEMSELVES.

2. Whether Gedo is being bombed or not is irrelevant to the point of THEM deciding for THEMSELVES about equity that is indepedent TO Gedo and is entirely THEIRS to interact with.

3. However, since the comparison was made, Gedo is not asking or contesting to leave or separate from Somalia so the entire analogy was incrogeuent.

I know that. But it’s where my empathy and humanity come in and i had to ask myself honest question like can I really be telling ppl shit if I’m a liar? Naw you gotta be real.

[Khalid Ali]

Khalid, I don't think anyone has asked for your opinion on this issue, but in the event of a separation; clearly reer Somalia minus British treaty signstories will be considered foreign nationals or aliens to Somaliland.

Speaking foe your specific community of Isaaq, what will Isaaq be to Somalia?

I am generally about your position on this.

Isaaq have shown what they can do what they can build what they can accomplish with minimum. Support. Walanweyn have all access to the world and have nothing absolutely nothing to show for. By the way we in somaliland have long stopped convincing you. About what to think of Somaliland. You simply not important to our cause or let's say irrelevant.

[ReturnOfMariixmaan]

Khalid,


Fair response. Why give up when the status quo suits you. Logical move. Let’s see where the story ends.

[Khalid Ali]

It’s quite simple.

Balkanisation will be end of Somalia.
Why would Puntland stay ? Jubbaland will be annexed by Kenya.
1 clan cannot dictate to the ethnic group called Somali.

Reer Sanaag is in PL. *Segments* of Reer Sool is on payroll.

This is a dysfunctional state.

The status quo shall remain the same for a long time.

I propose the obvious answer proper power sharing according to pure and simple population.

So in other words Somaliland is what is holding Italian Somalia together. So somaliland leaves then puntland leaves. What is stopping puntland now from leaving. Or are they waiting for Somaliland to be recognised first.

[Gubbet]

Khalid, I don't think anyone has asked for your opinion on this issue, but in the event of a separation; clearly reer Somalia minus British treaty signstories will be considered foreign nationals or aliens to Somaliland.

Speaking foe your specific community of Isaaq, what will Isaaq be to Somalia?

I am generally about your position on this.

Isaaq have shown what they can do what they can build what they can accomplish with minimum. Support. Walanweyn have all access to the world and have nothing absolutely nothing to show for. By the way we in somaliland have long stopped convincing you. About what to think of Somaliland. You simply not important to our cause or let's say irrelevant.

No Khalid, the question was miisunderstood so let me rephrase. Lol it was like a bert stare who offended who moment for me before I realized I wrote too fast.

SO KHALID-

I am merely talking about "jinsiyad"----aka indentification/nationality.

Completely different to tribal comparisons and all that which caused you to flick me off.

So basically bro

1. Somaliland belonging ia RESTRICTED to the tribes which signed treaties with Britain to make British Somaliland.

2. YOU ARE ISAAQ WHO IS PART OF SOMALILAND MEANING YOU WILL BE SOMALILAND NATIONAL (just go by point Somalia and Somaliland sign recogntion).

3. At that point what will you as ISAAQ be to Somalia as in
"jinsiyad."

We know Saddam and I as Marehan Somali WILL BE FOREIGN NATIONALS/ALIENS to Somaliland at that point.

What do you forseee YOU AS ISAAQ will be to Somalia?

Will you be a foreign National/alien to Somalia? Will you even take advantage of the the fact there may not even be a change of status to Isaaq Somali in Somalia and essentially be dual citizen?

Suppose even Somalia and Somaliland restricted mutually the citizenships---say you are an Isaaq living in Somalia-----is that Isaaq still a Somalilander if they refused to leave Somalia?

It's just a curiosity about how you imagine you will be navigating the new space of separated jinsiyad/identification at the moment of mutual recognition

[gobdoon]

You guys join the club We had HG dabada u dhaqaysa iidoor and some now according to the noises coming MX in somalinet they want to do the same for whatever reason
Its a matter of principle Somalia lama kala qaybin karo, waxay ka kooban tahay qabiilo, mid garkiis qaran ku noqonayana wax dhaci kara ma aha
Intan gumaystihi Yurub iman Africa Somaliya way jirtay kuwina ku andaconaya Ingiris ba Na gumaystay, so what Somali people may have not been a functioning nation before colony but have always been a fierce independent people who go and roam wherever the rainy season starts, and may it continue long
Bogihii iyo xududuhi beenta aha gumaystihi nooga tagay yaynan faqfaqin oo dib u so celin
Qabiil isku filan qaran noqon kara ma jiro, waxba yan Carab tusale lo so qaadan

[Khalid Ali]

Khalid, I don't think anyone has asked for your opinion on this issue, but in the event of a separation; clearly reer Somalia minus British treaty signstories will be considered foreign nationals or aliens to Somaliland.

Speaking foe your specific community of Isaaq, what will Isaaq be to Somalia?

I am generally about your position on this.

Isaaq have shown what they can do what they can build what they can accomplish with minimum. Support. Walanweyn have all access to the world and have nothing absolutely nothing to show for. By the way we in somaliland have long stopped convincing you. About what to think of Somaliland. You simply not important to our cause or let's say irrelevant.

No Khalid, the question was miisunderstood so let me rephrase. Lol it was like a bert stare who offended who moment for me before I realized I wrote too fast.

SO KHALID-

I am merely talking about "jinsiyad"----aka indentification/nationality.

Completely different to tribal comparisons and all that which caused you to flick me off.

So basically bro

1. Somaliland belonging ia RESTRICTED to the tribes which signed treaties with Britain to make British Somaliland.

2. YOU ARE ISAAQ WHO IS PART OF SOMALILAND MEANING YOU WILL BE SOMALILAND NATIONAL (just go by point Somalia and Somaliland sign recogntion).

3. At that point what will you as ISAAQ be to Somalia as in
"jinsiyad."

We know Saddam and I as Marehan Somali WILL BE FOREIGN NATIONALS/ALIENS to Somaliland at that point.

What do you forseee YOU AS ISAAQ will be to Somalia?

Will you be a foreign National/alien to Somalia? Will you even take advantage of the the fact there may not even be a change of status to Isaaq Somali in Somalia and essentially be dual citizen?

Suppose even Somalia and Somaliland restricted mutually the citizenships---say you are an Isaaq living in Somalia-----is that Isaaq still a Somalilander if they refused to leave Somalia?

It's just a curiosity about how you imagine you will be navigating the new space of separated jinsiyad/identification at the moment of mutual recognition

It depends if Somalia still upholds the pan nationalism. Does Somalia still consider somali Ethiopians as somali nationals. How does the sfg charter view djboutians just as somalis or as foreign nationals. If by any reason nothing changes its all right. Heck we might be even still hold raisal wasaare kuligeen magac u yaal ah. Lol

[Khalid Ali]

You guys join the club We had HG dabada u dhaqaysa iidoor and some now according to the noises coming MX in somalinet they want to do the same for whatever reason
Its a matter of principle Somalia lama kala qaybin karo, waxay ka kooban tahay qabiilo, mid garkiis qaran ku noqonayana wax dhaci kara ma aha
Intan gumaystihi Yurub iman Africa Somaliya way jirtay kuwina ku andaconaya Ingiris ba Na gumaystay, so what Somali people may have not been a functioning nation before colony but have always been a fierce independent people who go and roam wherever the rainy season starts, and may it continue long
Bogihii iyo xududuhi beenta aha gumaystihi nooga tagay yaynan faqfaqin oo dib u so celin
Qabiil isku filan qaran noqon kara ma jiro, waxba yan Carab tusale lo so qaadan

Gundooon there was never ever a Somali state or nation from raskambooni to lowyacadde prior to colonialism. Get that fantasy out of your head. Qabiilada qaar way isku filanyihin. Reer qaxarland uu baan isku filnayn. You can't survive a day with out Mogadishu.

[Gubbet]

You guys join the club We had HG dabada u dhaqaysa iidoor and some now according to the noises coming MX in somalinet they want to do the same for whatever reason
Its a matter of principle Somalia lama kala qaybin karo, waxay ka kooban tahay qabiilo, mid garkiis qaran ku noqonayana wax dhaci kara ma aha
Intan gumaystihi Yurub iman Africa Somaliya way jirtay kuwina ku andaconaya Ingiris ba Na gumaystay, so what Somali people may have not been a functioning nation before colony but have always been a fierce independent people who go and roam wherever the rainy season starts, and may it continue long
Bogihii iyo xududuhi beenta aha gumaystihi nooga tagay yaynan faqfaqin oo dib u so celin
Qabiil isku filan qaran noqon kara ma jiro, waxba yan Carab tusale lo so qaadan

I would rather wash 10 Isaaq asses than 1 Bahuko's shiidaad ladanaa, afaad nagula hadashid horta mawaad leedahay waa suaal iswaydiin mudane maba xishootiin qoladiinaan xiska la'

[grandpakhalif]

You guys join the club We had HG dabada u dhaqaysa iidoor and some now according to the noises coming MX in somalinet they want to do the same for whatever reason
Its a matter of principle Somalia lama kala qaybin karo, waxay ka kooban tahay qabiilo, mid garkiis qaran ku noqonayana wax dhaci kara ma aha
Intan gumaystihi Yurub iman Africa Somaliya way jirtay kuwina ku andaconaya Ingiris ba Na gumaystay, so what Somali people may have not been a functioning nation before colony but have always been a fierce independent people who go and roam wherever the rainy season starts, and may it continue long
Bogihii iyo xududuhi beenta aha gumaystihi nooga tagay yaynan faqfaqin oo dib u so celin
Qabiil isku filan qaran noqon kara ma jiro, waxba yan Carab tusale lo so qaadan

They are more honest than the PL state you love to sabotage FGS while claiming to love Somalia and unity. Atleast SL is not hypocrites and say what is in their mind that is what I call WAR CAD. But your buuntiland are hypocrites who claim to love Somalia but go against every President after AY. You work with UAE and Kenya to undermine Somalia and back stab us every time. Wallahi SL is 100% better than you.