WITHOUT RELIGION

michael_ital · Post by **michael_ital** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 12:52 am

Good thread. I especially liked Demure's post. particularly this: "I'm well convinced that you can't persuade anyone of either notion through conversation at this day and age. For usually both groups are inflicted with the stagnant mentalities you either have faith or you don't."

Those are my sentiments EXACTLY! And they are firmly entrenched. Therefore, I no longer attempt to convince those of here in Snet of non faith (or non belief. Whichever one prefers) that there IS a Greater Being. (hence the opinion that i'm a "fencesitter." Not at all. I just know that there's no convincing the kufaar through dialogue.) You'll never convince them, not in a million years. They're going to need to see it to believe it.

gurey25 · Post by **gurey25** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:33 am

Same sentiments Mike

Lakum deenakum wa liya deeni

Grant · Post by **Grant** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 10:59 am

I agree totally with Mike and Gurey.

Demure,

Very insightful post, clearly laid out. Well said

Galol,

I am pleased to see that you can admit that you do occassionally get carried away. Good on ya!

Intruder · Post by **Intruder** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:08 am

[quote="Demure"]
Historically people created religion to accept the unexplainable, and it's something that gives them a calming effect to their restless souls imagining the after death. For surely science till today does not explain everything in this universe, maybe it would 1000 years from today, but not as of yet.

Personally I believe in one God (say I have that elusive faith) however, I have reservations with some aspects of the religion, Ex; the female issue, slavery...etc.
But again what can the average person do in the way of a ruthless mercenary disguised as anything holy and good or the other ruthless force that interfers in your spirituality, condemns your idealogy per it stands a hindrance to their newly found light, Science..?[/quote]

Congratulation Demure you have now passed the Kafiir litmus test and have joined the ranks of doubters, aka Murtadiin aka Kafiriin. In due time the theologians of SÃ¢Â€Â™NET will promote you to an atheist.

Kamal35 · Post by **Kamal35** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:35 am

Very interesting topic. I thought in the beggining that it was going to be the classical: you basstard, you **** atheist, etc.

Demure: congrats. Really well articulated opinion. I think, in matters of religious belief, that it is developed when you are a teenager, among 13-17 years old. That's the period in which your religious or unreligious soul will grow up. The environment, the information that you get, your interest will form your soul in one way or another. The rest is just reinforcing your opinions.

I want to introduce here some kind of doubt to discuss about: you have talked about morals. But what is morals?. What is, in deep analysis, the Good and the Evil concept? God's morals or Human's morals? Just to think about.

Anyway, the topic is a good example of debate without insults.

beauty_babe · Post by **beauty_babe** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:36 am

[quote="dhuusa_deer"]Without religions, the Gods would reward intellect.[/quote]

BUT U SHOULD SAY "WITHOUT RELIGION" BCOZ THERE IS RELIGION AND MEANT TO LEAD US THE RIGHT PATH <DEPENDING WHICH RELIGION WE GO 4> AND ALSO THERE IS SUMTHING CALLED HEAVEN N HELL AND WHICH ONE U GONNA END UP Rolling Eyes

Galol · Post by **Galol** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 12:01 pm

Demure and other Theists

I disagree with the claim that faith or the lack of it are static affairs not susceptible to cahnge and revalutauion. That claim simply flies in the face of the know facts and goes against the grain of human nature. Faiths are organic fluid affairs like most things human.
We know theists become atheists and people moe in and out of believing and unbelieving and all teh saheds of doubt in between which you so humbly and truthfully expresed yourself.

Faiths, like all other socio-political systems can be imposed or changed through sheer force: that is how Islam came about and changed teh faiths of whole cultures from the Egyptains to the Persians.

I also disagree with the presentation as somehow benignly personal and individual it is not: faith is almost always an organised communbal affair where what you believe is influened or even decided by the wider social systems prevalent in your society.

And once faith systems from the individual into the communal they become political systesm which can be evaluated thus. Under that spectrum I hold Faith systems as organised social ideas based on gods and rules and groups become evil.

Grant

I get carried away I never patronise. Just kidding. Do I surmise from your applauase for Demure's (now very shaky) faith in god that you are a Theist? Perhaps you can get your backside off the fence and tell us where you stand on the issue at hand?

Michale

Interesting you think faiths cannot be changed. I would have thought you were once a non-Muslim and now you claim to be a Muslim. So you changed. What makes you think othesr can't?

Gurey

Not as simple as that and you know it. Muhammed uttered those profound words when he was unsure of his powerbase. As soon as that changed he took un-sheathed his blood-soaked sword to imopose his deen on Persians, Egyptians, Pagans and anyone else he could lay his sword on. So why lie so blatantly?

gurey25 · Post by **gurey25** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 12:12 pm

What is Good and what is Evil?

God created us with inteligence and free will.
Without sentience there is no Good or Evil.
For the same reason Animals are niether Good or Evil.

Now some will say since God is the creator, then he has created Evil
or Wills it as much as Good.
Lets look at it this way we believe God created all and so god must know what is good and bad for his creators, hence his commands and prohibitions in the scriptures.

But what makes , Commands Commands?
If you say to someone " come in and have a cup of tea" is that a Command

or if you say " stop dont move further, snake infront of you" is that a command?

Gods commands and prohibitions point to the source of Good and Evil
The "Nafs" the ego.
The Nafs of a sentient bieng Humans in this case is the one desiring evil
that is why there are commands and prohibitions from god.

gurey25 · Post by **gurey25** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 12:25 pm

[quote]Gurey

Not as simple as that and you know it. Muhammed uttered those profound words when he was unsure of his powerbase. As soon as that changed he took un-sheathed his blood-soaked sword to imopose his deen on Persians, Egyptians, Pagans and anyone else he could lay his sword on. So why lie so blatantly?[/quote]

Maxamad may peace be upon him , was totaly flawless,
his work is an example for every muslim,

He was a Leader in every sense, spiritual, political,
ofcourse war is to be expected.
War is part of life

Galol · Post by **Galol** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 12:49 pm

Gurey

So it is "Keep Youir faith and i will keep mine" or is it "accept my faith or I will kill you" which is what Muhammed and his men told every nation and culture and race they could lay their hands on.

I uncovered your hypocrisy so you decided to resort to empty rehetorical flourishes like "he is flawless"

But you make your proclamation so unconvincingly you sound like a robot. I can almost hear the metallic dawl in your voice " Heee is flaaawless..blip blip..Hee eees flaawlees"

Fence-sitter.

gurey25 · Post by **gurey25** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 12:57 pm

Ok you want me to spell it out

I see nothing wrong with what the rasuul al laah did.
All his actions were perfect.
He is more of an inspiration than anyone else.

in your lonely worthless existance as an athiest,
you are grasping for straws man.

Just becuase i do not curse you, and maintain a civilized debate,
you percieve weakness.

Yes in a way i am sitting on some sort of fence.
I see both you and the mindless mobs that speak for islam these days
as opposite sides of the same spectrum.

I tolerate you because we are both living in the Dar ul xarb.
there no longer exists Dar ul islam expect inour minds

Galol · Post by **Galol** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 1:10 pm

Gurey

Taking child brides perfect?

Taking human beings as slaves perfect?

Marrying hsi daughter-in-law perfect?

Killing people who did him no harm perfect?

Allowing slavery to exist Perfect?

Going back on his word of "your faith and mine" perfect?

Empire building by sword perfect?

Genocide against Jews perfect?

Misogyny perfect?

Hypocrisyt perfect?

Lying about flying on space-going donkey perfect?

Lying about meeting a sky god perfect?

Lying about meeting a space angel in a cave perfect?

Spitting into ali's eye at khaybar perfect?

Even he admitted one little tiny weeny mistake: being horrible to the disabled!

gurey25 · Post by **gurey25** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 1:26 pm

Your interpretation.

but ill give you an example of what muslims will believe.
Not those pussies that allowed the moral relativity of the west to corrupt thier mind.

The Rasuul married caysha at that age,, i,e at puberty,
he did it to define the limits to our behavior....
so if he did it , there is absolutly nothing wrong with it.

Galol · Post by **Galol** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 1:33 pm

"he did it to define the limits to our behavior.... "

Lol! No comment. it will lower the tone of the thread.

But how about all the other points? He may have took child brides for reaserach purposes indeed for own good as you claim but why did kill innocents?

michael_ital · Post by **michael_ital** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 1:35 pm

Galol,

In terms of "non faith," I meant a non faith in the belief that there is a God. Specifically referring to those here in Snet. I've seen and had enough futile engagements here of my own to convince me that the mind's of the unbelievers will remain unchanged. So, I gave up on them. But you knew that's what I meant, didn't you ? In fact, i've even edited my original post to reflect my more literal stance.