Is the Kitaab kufr?

[Wise-Man]

[quote]avowedly-agnostic[quote =gurey25] People of the book are respected becuase the lord sent them Prophets and Holy books and they adhere to some tenents of the true faith. [/quote]

If Islam accords "respect" to Jews and christians, how do you explain this hadith:
“ Allah's Messenger said: Do not greet the Jews and the Christians before they greet you, and when you meet any one of them on the roads force him to go to the narrowest part of it. “
(Sahih Bukhari Book 25, Number 5389 Narrated Abu Hurayrah)[/quote]


Well, well, don't confuse yourself as usual. Those who need to be respected are those who respect Islam and Muslims and follow what they have been revealed to them literally. This hadith does not tell you to mistreat every Jews walking down the street, but the consequence of their actions and attitudes determines how to be treated a Jews or a Christian. On the other hand, there are numerous hadiths and verses in the Islamic teaching that one might need to grasp the meaning behind it before he/she takes it literally.

[dhuusa_deer]

Gurey,

Refusal to let in non-muslims into Mecca and Medina on the grounds of their FAITH and not merit belies Islam claim of fairness, meritoriousness, respect, tolerance etc.

[gurey25]

It is holy ground.

refusal to allow entry is a non issue.

[Gamadid.]

Grant, if you are referring to Advocator's charge against me, it is alright. I quoted the bible to make a point because some folks in this forum seem to be neither islamic nor anything else in their disposition and reasoning. I thought it might help them see the fallacy of their reasoning and that no sensible religion actually teaches collective blame let alone the islam they would come to its defense if bad mouthed and hypocritically claim to adhere to.

Certain christian doctrine, like the original sin puts blame on everyone including the new borns of course, but setting aside that fabrication, and strictly adhering to the biblical teaching that escaped human meddling, some of the biblical teachings resemble some of the Quranic teachings. Using these similar verses as evidence is not something I can find support for. So my logic could be twisted but my objective to make a point was well served.


Gurey25 has said it better than anyone else, so reread his post.

[dhuusa_deer]

[quote="gurey25"]It is holy ground.

refusal to allow entry is a non issue.[/quote]

not when you say Islam is 4 equality and tolerance. besides the ENTIRE arabian peninsula, according to Maxamed's last wishes, is off limits to nonmuslims.

[Gacalisa]

I AM SICK AND TIRED OF THESE IGNORANT QUESTIONS.

YOU KAAFIRS AND ATHIESTS STOP THIS AT ONCE.

[gurey25]

[quote="dhuusa_deer"][quote="gurey25"]It is holy ground.

refusal to allow entry is a non issue.[/quote]

not when you say Islam is 4 equality and tolerance. besides the ENTIRE arabian peninsula, according to Maxamed's last wishes, is off limits to nonmuslims.[/quote]

Nope only Mecca and Medina.
Do not confuse the actions of the Sacudi royal family with Islamic Edicts.
im currently in the arabian peninsula and sitting 12km from a Temple to the Hindu God Hanuman. and the 3 buildings away 400m or so is Catholic Church.

[dhuusa_deer]

Gurey,

What is the reason for denying nonmuslims entry into Mecca and Medina?

Isn't it BECAUSE and for no other reason they're NIJAS or IMPURE?



Are you saying there are churches and ashrams in Saudi Arabia?

[gurey25]

Why cant you get your head around the signifigance of the holy.
Yes it is becuase of Impurity.

Even a muslim has to do wudu before he enters a Mosque.

i believe you already knew all this.


Saudi Arabia does not occupy the entire Arabian Peninsula.

[avowedly-agnostic]

[quote= Wise-Man] This hadith does not tell you to mistreat every Jews walking down the street, but the consequence of their actions and attitudes determines how to be treated a Jews or a Christian. [/quote]

That's not what the hadith says. The hadith doesn't say only bully the BAD Jews and Christians off the road, or those Jews and Christians that don't respect Islam.

The hadith is clearly referring to Jews and Christians in general. It's a reflection of the way the prophet treated the people of the book and the way he instructed his companions & followers to treat their non-Muslim guests. Harassment and bullying of Jews & Christians was the order of the day. To say otherwise is to contradict the words of the "messenger" of god.

I don't have a problem with the fact that Mohammed was an intolerant man. Intolerance is what I expect from an Arab theocratic shepard who had 12 wives. My problem is with people like you trying to make out Islam is peaceful when it isn't.

[Wise-Man]

Well, you are just incompatible and no matter how I explain it to you, you will never comprehend. I wish I could have made you understand. Anyway, you might carry on your confusion and clumsiness, but I hope you would never ask people to justify that hadith for you again.

[same]

Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
(Qur'an, Surat Al-Tawba 29).

How can you explein this verse?

[Galol]

Same

Islam is a bolshie tough no nonsense largely rational faith. It is a martial belief system . Is there anything wrong with that?

I think not.

[avowedly-agnostic]

[quote= Wiseman] Well, you are just incompatible and no matter how I explain it to you, you will never comprehend. [quote]

Incompatible with what? That doesn't make much sense. And you haven't explained why Mohammed bullied Jews and Christians either. Your interpretation of the hadith is at odds with what Mohammed intended. One can understand why you would attempt to gloss over the truth. I'd be terribly ashamed aswell if the man whom I hold as holy was exposed as a hateful bully and sectarianist.

The prophet (according to the hadith) taught that Muslims are superior to Jews and Christians, and to display to Jews and Christians this supposed superiority, he said to Muslims never to greet the people of the book first, and to force them off foot paths and pavements.

The prophet in his own words:

“ Do not greet the Jews and the Christians before they greet you, and when you meet any one of them on the roads force him to go to the narrowest part of it. “

(Sahih Bukhari Book 25, Number 5389 )

[same]

When the last moment of the life of Allah's Apostle came he started putting his 'Khamisa' on his face and when he felt hot and short of breath he took it off his face and said, "May Allah curse the Jews and Christians for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets." The Prophet was warning (Muslims) of what those had done.
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Allah's Apostle said, "Say Amen' when the Imam says "Ghair-il-maghdubi 'alaihim wala-ddal-lin; not the path of those who earn Your Anger (such as Jews) nor of those who go astray (such as Christians); all the past sins of the person whose saying (of Amin) coincides with that of the angels, will be forgiven.
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I heard Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) saying, "We (Muslims) are the last (to come) but (will be) the foremost on the Day of Resurrection though the former nations were given the Holy Scriptures before us. And this was their day (Friday) the celebration of which was made compulsory for them but they differed about it. So Allah gave us the guidance for it (Friday) and all the other people are behind us in this respect: the Jews' (holy day is) tomorrow (i.e. Saturday) and the Christians' (is) the day after tomorrow (i.e. Sunday)."
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The Prophet said, "Your example and the example of the people of the two Scriptures (i.e. Jews and Christians) is like the example of a man who employed some laborers and asked them, 'Who will work for me from morning till midday for one Qirat?' The Jews accepted and carried out the work. He then asked, Who will work for me from midday up to the 'Asr prayer for one Qirat?' The Christians accepted and fulfilled the work. He then said, 'Who will work for me from the 'Asr till sunset for two Qirats?' You, Muslims have accepted the offer. The Jews and the Christians got angry and said, 'Why should we work more and get lesser wages?' (Allah) said, 'Have I with-held part of your right?' They replied in the negative. He said, 'It is My Blessing, I bestow upon whomever I wish .'
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Umar expelled the Jews and the Christians from Hijaz. When Allah's Apostle had conquered Khaibar, he wanted to expel the Jews from it as its land became the property of Allah, His Apostle, and the Muslims. Allah's Apostle intended to expel the Jews but they requested him to let them stay there on the condition that they would do the labor and get half of the fruits. Allah's Apostle told them, "We will let you stay on thus condition, as long as we wish." So, they (i.e. Jews) kept on living there until 'Umar forced them to go towards Taima' and Ariha'.
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Allah's Apostle said, "The Jews and the Christians do not dye (their grey hair), so you shall do the opposite of what they do (i.e. dye your grey hair and beards)."
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It has been narrated by 'Umar b. al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim.
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Harb ibn Ubaydullah told on the authority of his grandfather, his mother's father, that he had it on the authority of his father that the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Tithes are to be levied on Jews and Christians, but not on Muslims.
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Suhayl ibn AbuSalih said: I went out with my father to Syria. The people passed by the cloisters in which there were Christians and began to salute them. My father said: Do not give them salutation first, for AbuHurayrah reported the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) as saying: Do not salute them (Jews and Christians) first, and when you meet them on the road, force them to go to the narrowest part of it.