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[quote="DawladSade"] Why disect my argument into mini-debates and take the whole flavor away? [quote]


To respond to the points you made and correct your factual errors.



[quote] you wish to employ mere human logic to the existence of god whereas a believer such as i can never institue human logic to validate that very existence of the divine.[quote]

Human logic and evidence are the two tools we use to tell truth from falsehood. They've served us well so far. Our ancestors would never have decided to leave their caves if they haven't used these two tools. And without them, we're handicapped in our ability to make the right choices.

Now, if you wanna rest your believe in the supernatural on pure faith, that's fine. You're more than welcome to it. Just don't attempt to convince me the existance of God with "faith." Because to me "faith" is believe in something without logic and evidence... the complete surrender to ignorance. I'm not so sure that is progress from anything I currently hold.




[quote]how did you come to that conclusion? again is all the quran a myth? parts?[quote]


History. Science.



[quote]how do you now the prophets are a work of fiction? [quote]


There is no such thing as "prophet."



[quote]how do you know the great flood did not exist? [quote]

It doesn't show on the geological time scale. None of the nearby civilisations reported it. And it's a complete rip-off of the Epic Gilgamesh.



[quote]you have disqualified the whole quran into a fiction, because of that i say its only fair you stand true to your own position and provide evidence concurrent with your position.[quote]


Ok. Adam and Eve were fictional characters. So is the entire 'creation' story. That alone qualifies the Quran as fictional book.



[quote] 1. i remember takin a course on greek/roman mythology long ago and i clearly remember homor at the most not bein a true individual and at the least havin his existence doubted. [quote]


You're quibbling. The point to cite Homer was to underscore that illiteracy is no barrier to writting work of fiction. All that is moot as Mohammed didn't write the Quran himself.




[quote] 2. by illiterate i had assumed you would translate into without an educational background. [quote]


Illiteracy and education are not mutually inclusive. You can be illiterate (not able to read and write) and educated. Mahammed couldn't read and write. But that tells us nothing whether he was knowledgeable in Judo-christians believes... cuz back then, most ppl were illiterate.




[quote]every single ayah of the quran was written durin muhammed's lifetime.[quote]

Why do you then contradict yourself below?

"it would have been impossible to compile (in the manner it is today) all the quran together durin his lifetime because the revelations were goin until his death."


You admit the Quran was written until AFTER mohammed's death.




[quote] by the "writtin" of the quran after muhamed, it means it was put together, the ayahs that is, in terms of relevence to each other so they comprised a single chapter pertainin to a single subject or closely allied ones. [quote]


No, it means it was WRITTEN. The majority of it from the memory of ppl, parchements and other objects. You should study the compilation of the Quran... it's all in the Hadiths.

[quote]To respond to the points you made and correct your factual errors.[/quote]

Again you coped out. I am guessin it is extremely hard for you to face my message..? And you responded after 4 days even when i kept reminding you when you were online.

[quote]Human logic and evidence are the two tools we use to tell truth from falsehood.[/quote]

Again you have failed to understand that being a believer means thinking out the box..? I mean sure you are thought no all situations require thinkin in the box?

human logic is what allah has given us to differentiate us from animals. allah gave us human logic so we can deal with all that he had bestowed to us on earth. he gave us as a weapon in our favor of his test. obviously your disobediance is not extrememly surprisin as hell would not exist if there were those who didnt take advantage of allah's gifts to us against that which gave it to us.

[quote]Our ancestors would never have decided to leave their caves if they haven't used these two tools.[/quote]

our ancestors would not have left anywhere if allah had not ordained it. whatever the means or the hows, the overall source of our ability for anythin was and is allah. we could not translate what he had instore for us in earth. if we were ment to evolve from monkeys and cavemen or any other thing we do not know and we could not say any theory for whatever our origins might be is wrong and contrary to islam becuz that itself is wrong because we do not know what god had instore for us. it is said noah lived thousand years..were his ppl the same ppl as ours?? i brin this point becuase this unnecessary confliction seems to be wat drives our gaalo madow against islam. it also seems to be what drives u against islam.

[quote]History. Science.[/quote]

whose history. whose science?



[quote]There is no such thing as "prophet."[/quote]

says who? overwhelminging believe from the majority of ppl on earth, learned or not learned, christians, jews, or muslims blv prophets existed and have existed and are a recorded aspect of history. in that case, prophets existed untill you provide evidence contrary to that will convince me and the majority of other ppl in this world.

[quote]It doesn't show on the geological time scale. None of the nearby civilisations reported it. And it's a complete rip-off of the Epic Gilgamesh.
[/quote]

any fabrications you list from now on will be part of your "homor embarassment". all scholars on the mythcism surroundin gilgamesh (as u know he existed but the mythcism is false) , agree that the epic of gilgamesh is somehow "related" to the great flood. none accredited ones have given opinion on whether that epic was the source of the great flood or whether the story of the great flood was the source of that epic.

geological time scale? nearby civilization? are you daft?? none survived, the whole land was rewashed witout a single trace of those before them..reason for a pair of every animal bein put on the doon??


[quote]Ok. Adam and Eve were fictional characters. So is the entire 'creation' story. That alone qualifies the Quran as fictional book.[/quote]

THE FOUNDATION OF YOUR GAALNIMO..is based on our creation? that god did not create us? that we are wat a not so bright man hundred years ago while observing turtles in some distant island in the pacific thought of us to be??

lets analyze somethings:

how do you know the form god created us to be in? how do you know we are today what were then?? that a single form has continued in this existence..does not islam say noah was over thousands years old?? was he the same form as i am or was he a completely different form? do we know? do you know if it was or was not god's set course that we start out some way and then end another? do you know if even evolution really does exist and allah created us to be formed that way??

there are some many things we do not have answers to and subsititing ur own assumptions will be ur undoin as well as ur peers.

[quote]You're quibbling. The point to cite Homer was to underscore that illiteracy is no barrier to writting work of fiction. All that is moot as Mohammed didn't write the Quran himself.
[/quote]


your seriously faltering in your own reliance on human logic. for a person runnin on your plateform you are seriously contradictin yourself in that (1) you cannot differentiate btw fictional characters and real people and (2) mythology from actual history.

watever you ment to underscore has no relevence because homer is a fictional character and mohammed was a living and breathin man. anyone could have invented the mythology of homer and give him attribute he could never have possessed but no one can write history on such an important man and hoodwink the world with their bs. end of story.

[quote]Illiteracy and education are not mutually inclusive. You can be illiterate (not able to read and write) and educated.[/quote]

thats not sayin much because in this case they inclusive. mohammed was illiterate and did not have any education wat so ever and any life lessons were rudimentary at best. is it more to your comfort zone to speak on general terms for a specific situation..?


[quote]You admit the Quran was written until AFTER mohammed's death.[/quote]

don't put words in my mouth. every single ayah of the quran was written as soon as it was reveled. as the last ayah came to muhhamed "this day i have perfect your relgion for you, called my favor upon you, and have chosen for you islam as your religion" in his last speech, IT WAS WRITTEN DOWN. in that respect, all the quran was written down as the prophet lived.

the quran was started to be COMPILED in the manner it exists today as the prophet laid dying. it was finished during abubakrs reign. now i know english is not hard for you so do not confuse my words again. the quran was compiled (meanin the already written ayahs were organized into the chapters they are part of today dependin on relevence to each other) after the death but the quran had already been written befor the prophet's last breath.


[quote]Mahammed couldn't read and write. But that tells us nothing whether he was knowledgeable in Judo-christians believes... cuz back then, most ppl were illiterate. [/quote]

yes mohamed could not read nor write and whether he had heard of judeo-christian beliefs or not isnt sayin much. if he had heard of them and truly belief them to be right, why did he not join them? clearly if is called to a message then one believes in the message and tries to perfect his practice of that message rather then knowling start somethin on falsehood which that individual knows is wrong and decieving themselves and others, you dont say?

if muhhamed had heard of those beliefs (usin your own position here) and believed them as opposed to the almost obesseive worship of his ppl of their ancestor paganism which would make an individual think a minute or two before leavin his belief, why would muhhamed knowling lie to himself and others? wat would a man get from such falsehood? would any man as that have confidence in his message as muhhamed had? would any man sacrifice his own life in wars after countless wars and give his wealth, family positions, honor, and a future respectable place among high quraish elites for a message and cause that individual knew to be the greatest lie? would he live in the desert, hide in caves, risk his life at night, his children, family, friends, relatives..??

i swear this is laughable and i will sincerely take the time to laugh now

now in all seriousness i sincerely think shaydaan is deludin you and you will pay for aidin him in that effort.

assalamu calaykum brother

[quote="DawladSade"] Again you have failed to understand that being a believer means thinking out the box..? [quote]

I understood it completely. "Thinking out of the box" is euphemism for magical thinking. As I said before, you're welcome to it. But as far determining fact from fiction, it's of no aid. If anything, it's obstacle. Reason and evidence, under the purview of science, help winnow fact from fiction very well. You favour magical thinking over them because the facts science turns up disagree and invalidate your world view! Your loss!

Ever wonder why religionists are poor problem solvers? Among the myriad reasons is they unabashedly place little stock in Reason and Evidence for decision making. Thankfully, science -- the pervayor of reason and evidence -- has transformed our world for the better. While mysticism and magical thinking only pulls it down to our grim, benighted past.

Little gratitude for Science is in order!




[quote] human logic is what allah has given us to differentiate us from animals. [quote]

A bald claim without reason and/or evidence. As such, I'm not obliged to repudiate it.




[quote] whatever the means or the hows, the overall source of our ability for anythin was and is allah. [quote]

A bald claim without reason and/or evidence. As such, I'm not obliged to repudiate it.



[quote]we could not translate what he had instore for us in earth. if we were ment to evolve from monkeys and cavemen or any other thing we do not know and we could not say any theory for whatever our origins might be is wrong and contrary to islam becuz that itself is wrong because we do not know what god had instore for us. [quote]

More circular reasoning. You muslims love 'em to bits. Any discussion that arrives at a dead end by it's lack of merit gets 'miraculous' Get Out of Jail Free Card by appeal to Allah. How convenient for Allah to be your sidekick in your discussions with mere mortal beings. And you still flunked. What "allah has in store for us" doesn't follow from anything you said hitherto and as such is mere empty claim not worthy of serious consideration.

Thanks for playing, try again.



[quote]it is said noah lived thousand years[quote]


Listen kiddo, ANYONE can say practically anything. How do we tell what's true from what's false? Reason and Evidence.

If Noah lived a thousandS of years ago, we would have heard of him. Seen some evidence to suggest he existed. Or find artifacts from his days. But we find none. THUS, he didn't exist is more likely to be the truth than he existed alternative.



[quote]whose history. [quote]

The 1 bolstered by the majority of the available evidence.



[quote]whose science?[quote]

There's only one science, the rest are psuedoscience. You'd know this if you knew anything about science.



[quote]says who? [quote]

Says the evidence. There were never any prophets but plenty of schemers and con man claiming to be so.



[quote]in that case, prophets existed untill you provide evidence contrary to that will convince me and the majority of other ppl in this world.[quote]

First, what majority of ppl believe doesn't matter regarding the truth of anything. 4/5 human being on earth believes, for instance, that Islam is false. I'm sure you think they're wrong, right?

Second, I can't and no one can, provide evidence for what DOESN'T exist. You're asking me to prove a negative, an impossible proposition.



[quote] any fabrications you list from now on will be part of your "homor embarassment". all scholars on the mythcism surroundin gilgamesh (as u know he existed but the mythcism is false) , [quote]


Actually, some scholars reckon the Epic of Gilgamesh was based on the actual flooding by the Black Sea some 7000 yrs ago. People in those days being ignorant and wanting to find 'greater' answers of their misfortunes, latched some 'greater significance' to the actual flood. Like God's wrath. It was later adopted and slightly modified by Jews exiled from Mesapotamia.



[quote]agree that the epic of gilgamesh is somehow "related" to the great flood. [quote]

Actually, it's straightforward, word-for-word rip-off.




[quote]geological time scale? nearby civilization? are you daft?? none survived, the whole land was rewashed witout a single trace of those before them..[quote]

EVERY major flood in earth's history appears in the Geological column. We see it as it deposits LAYERS upon layers containing rich fossils and evidence of the earth's past (u should study geology, fascinating subject). Noah's flood can't be found.

Nearby civilisations that EXISTED and FLOURISHED when the world was supposedly over-run by flood, didn't report it. I'm talking about Egyptians (and others) who painstakingly recorded most natural disasters.



[quote]reason for a pair of every animal bein put on the doon??[quote]

Not polar bears, not marsupials!



[quote] how do you know we are today what were then?? [quote]

The same way I know my grandpa existed, helped give birth to my dad who in turn helped give birth to me. Tell me, who's being daft now?




[quote]do you know if even evolution really does exist [quote]

I KNOW Evolution is a FACT!



[quote]there are some many things we do not have answers to and subsititing ur own assumptions will be ur undoin as well as ur peers.[quote]

I agree, so why don't you do what you say above. Rather than ascribing to God what we don't know. You think God exists and created everything because AND because it says so in the Quran. Not from logic, not from evidence... not from anything but pure dogma crafted at a time when ppl had LESS knowledge of how the world works. Why trust the words contained in some old, dusty tome over modern science that seem to reflect the reality of our world much much better?



[quote]watever you ment to underscore has no relevence because homer is a fictional character and mohammed was a living and breathin man. [quote]


Homer wasn't fictional character. The only area of debate is not if he was real or not but whether or not he authored ALL of the Illiad AND the Odyssey.



[quote] mohammed was illiterate and did not have any education wat so ever and any life lessons were rudimentary at best. is it more to your comfort zone to speak on general terms for a specific situation..?[quote]

Again, who cares? I have shown that it IS possible for illiterate man to author a book.



[quote]don't put words in my mouth. every single ayah of the quran was written as soon as it was reveled. [quote]

Not according to the Hadiths.

You're welcome, I'm always willing to teach muslims their own religion.




[quote]if he had heard of them and truly belief them to be right, why did he not join them?[quote]

He had greater ambition -- create a religion of his own that'll outlive his mortality. It makes eminent sense to me.

[quote]He had greater ambition -- create a religion of his own that'll outlive his mortality. It makes eminent sense to me.[/quote]


You reap what you sow.

Dhusadhere, the only think i will say is prepare yourself against God (if there is anything you can do to prepare urself against god anyway).