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[Was that a yes or a no?]

The answer is yes if you prove your allegation.

"Is it your personal opinion that the enslavement of non-muslims and non-Wahabbi/Salafis is a religious obligation ordained by God until the end of time? And Is it your personal opinion that it is proper to execute the victims of rape who are unable to find four male Muslim witness that will testify it was involuntary ?"

Grant

Not wanting to interrupt an interesting debate here, but you really reach for the extremes when critiquing/questioning Islam, eh ?

arabman, I must had the wrong image of you...............but anyways good job!

^^ He definately has his moments.

Arabman, your back? I thought you didn't want to come back to this place.

[quote="Grant"] You will have noticed that virtually all mature religions devide into camps, usually following the pattern Fundamentalist-Orthodox-Conservative-Liberal-Reform. This is true even of Islam.[quote]


Hi Grant,

I think you need to really understand Islam and to do so, you need to read the quran and the hadith. Furthermore, there are a lot of interesting books out there by Islamic philosophers, with which will would be more than happy to share them with you. That said, I would like to clarify few things to you about Islam.
Firs, it is important to note that Islam like Judaism gives more emphasis to obeying the rules, while Christianity is to the intent that lies behind action, to faith. It has even been suggested that the hallmark of Islam is well summed up not so much in it's emphasis on ORTHODOXY (right thinking) as on ORTHOPRAXY (right conduct). Islam therefore, emphasizes more on the running tally of a believer's deeds and misdeeds, with the implication that the more favourable the balance the stronger the individual's position before god. Christianity on the other hand places more emphasis on the disjuncture between God's grace and man's deeds. So when you say that "virtually all mature religions devide into camps, usually following the pattern Fundamentalist-Orthodox-Conservative-Liberal-Reform. This is true even of Islam" It is clearly incorrect. Furthermore, I think that you have used your Christian world view to assess another faith, which is substantially different.

Duqa is not christian. He is a Deist.

Ibn Taymiyyah had a habit of faulting others lavishly, including Umar ibn al Khattab (RA), and Ali ibn Abdul Mutalib (RA). His own student, al Dhahabi has attested to this tendency to fault and insult. He also had anthropomorphistic tendencies. He also issued the infamous fatwa that setting out to visit the Prophet's (PBUH) grave is HARAM. Why anyone would bother painting the guy as a victim is ridiculous.

For details:

http://www.sunnah.org/history/Innovator ... ymiyya.htm

Asalaamu Caleykum Wr Wb

Is this the real Arabman? If yes welcome back yaa akhii. what happened to your old nick name?

Wa Caleykum Salaam Wr Wb, mudane Biscuiti. My old nick has been retired; I have this new one.

Arabman,

I haven't made any allegations. I asked you what you believe. There is little point in continuing this discussion if you won't answer that.

Surria,

"So when you say that "virtually all mature religions devide into camps, usually following the pattern Fundamentalist-Orthodox-Conservative-Liberal-Reform. This is true even of Islam" It is clearly incorrect. Furthermore, I think that you have used your Christian world view to assess another faith, which is substantially different."

Are you trying to say there is no variation within Islam or that Islam cannot be understood from just the general persepective of humanity?

Here's the history to 1200:

http://www.fsmitha.com/h3/h08is.htm

I found this at

http://parablemania.ektopos.com/archive ... vatio.html

"It's commonly asserted by Muslim apologists that Christianity is fragmented and sectarian, while Islam is not. Nothing could be further from the truth. There have been schisms within the larger umbrella of Islam, one very major one, with some of them leading to as much violence as any of the schisms within the larger umbrella of Christianity. There also seems to be as much variation within Islam theologically as there is within Christianity, so the unity argument in favor of Islam is simply historically inaccurate. "

Just when is it that the 72 false sects of Islam are supposed to arise? Don't you see any difference in the practice of Islam between a Sufi and a follower of Abdul Wahab? How about the graves of the sheiks in Barawe? What happened there?

There's a website that has an archive of 22,000 pages of Abdul Wahhabs fatwas. There are also pages of commentaries by his sons and grandsons.

I just discovered that he gave Saudi Arabia to the Saudis by declaring all opposing tribes mushrik. He was the author of the fatwa that made the kingdom "legitimate" within Islam.

I also found this exchange interesting:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/archive ... -2987.html

The Guiding Helper (al-Murshid al-Muin written by Ibn Ishaq [RA] )says:
Then, go to visit the Prophet with etiquette: 32:1315
Become pure. Repent. Enter the Masjid as fit. 32:1316
Pray two units and then go to face the Prophet. 32:1317
Send your salam to him. But then, do not forget 32:1318
Abu Bakr on the right and `Umar at his side2072. 32:1319
Ask for pure forgiveness and the Garden to abide. 32:1320

Explanatory Notes:
2064 The Prophet's body (May Allah bless him and give him peace) is buried in his original house which is now
part of his Masjid in Madinah. It is mandub to go visit this Masjid and the grave of the Prophet (May Allah
bless him and give him peace). Additionally, one may also visit the graves of some of his companions which
are located in a graveyard adjacent to the Prophet's Masjid (May Allah bless him and give him peace).
2065 It is part of etiquette to perform ablution before entering to visit the Prophet (May Allah bless him and give
him peace).
2066 It is part of etiquette to repent from past misdeeds before entering to visit the Prophet (May Allah bless him
and give him peace).
2067 Please refer to footnote 1825.
2068 It is part of etiquette to perform a two unit mandub prayer after entering the masjid and before going to face
the Prophet (May Allah bless him and give him peace).
2069 It is part of etiquette to have one's face towards the Prophet's grave (May Allah bless him and give him
peace) when sending one's salutations.
2070 It is part of etiquette to say "Assalamu `Alaykum" to the Prophet facing his grave (May Allah bless him and
give him peace).
2071 It is part of etiquette to turn slightly to the right (when one's back is towards the qiblah) and say "Assalamu
`Alaykum" to Abū Bakr al-"iddīq (May Allah be well pleased with him) who is buried to the right of the
Prophet. Abu Bakr was the first Caliph after the Prophet (May Allah bless him and give him peace) left us.
2072 It is part of etiquette to turn slightly more to the right (when one's back is towards the qiblah) and say
"Assalamu `Alaykum" to `Umar ibn al-Kha''āb (May Allah be well pleased with him) who is buried to the right
of Abu Bakr al-Siddiq. `Umar ibn al-Khattab was the second Caliph after the Prophet (May Allah bless him and
give him peace).
[Revision Note: Since the actual location of `Umar's grave is to the right of Abu Bakr according to the most
authentic sources, we have changed verses 1319-1320 to read as above. These are the only verses which have
been changed for clarification purposes since the original release of the Guiding Helper. We do not plan to
change any other verses of the text and expect progeny to preserve this text as they found it clarifying any
oddities in their own explanatory notes.]
Additionally for those in the future that visit the Prophet Muhammad (May Allah bless him and give him peace)
after Prophet `Isa (upon whom be peace) is buried in his reserved spot next to him, it will be mandub to also say
"Assalamu `Alaykum" to Prophet `Isa (upon whom be peace).



Answer my questions, if you are honest:

Who buried the Prophet in the mosque?

(THE SALAF!!!)

Who requested to be buried there?

(THE PROPHET!!!)

Where did Abu Bakr and Umar request to be buried?

(NEXT TO THE PROPHET IN THE MOSQUE!!!)

Who buried Abu Bakr and Umar in the mosque next to the Prophet?

(THE SALAF!!!)

Padishah

I don't know why you keep on attacking dead scholars (rahimahumAllah) but here are some quotes from Ibn Taymiyah about the issues you brought up:

"Ibn Taymiyyah had a habit of faulting others lavishly, including Umar ibn al Khattab (RA), and Ali ibn Abdul Mutalib (RA)"

Have you read any of his books? His opinion was that it is haram to slander any of sahaba or speak bad about them so why he would do it after stating that it is haram? There are numerous examples of this and here's one example from the book (Al-Saarim al-Maslool cala Shaatim al-Rasool) where he is speaking about this issue:

"If a person slanders them in a way that does not impugn their good character or religious commitment, such as describing one of them as being stingy or cowardly or lacking in knowledge or not being an ascetic and so on, then he deserves to be rebuked and disciplined, but we do not rule him to be a kaafir because of that. This is how the words of those who were not regarded as kaafirs by the scholars are to be understood.
If a person curses them and slanders them in general terms, this is an area of scholarly dispute, depending on whether this cursing is motivated by mere feelings or religious doctrines. If a person goes beyond that and claims that they apostatized after the death of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), apart from a small group of no more than ten or so individuals, or that most of them rebelled and did evil, then there is no doubt that such a person is a kaafir, because he has denied what is stated in more than one place in the Qur’aan, that Allaah was pleased with them and praised them. Indeed whoever doubts that such a person is a kaafir is himself a kaafir."

He also wrote:

"It is proven that he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Do not slander my Companions, for by the One in Whose hand is my soul, if any one of you were to spend gold equal to the size of Uhud, it would not equal the deeds of one of them, not even half of it.’ [Reported by al-Bukhaari and Muslim]. Anyone who comes after the Sahaabah cannot be like the Sahaabah by doing obligatory duties such as Hajj, jihaad, the five daily prayers and sending blessings upon the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)."

and

"Ahl al-Sunnah speak well of them, and pray for mercy and forgiveness for them, but they do not believe that anyone is infallible or that anyone is protected from making mistakes in their ijtihaad except the Messenger of Allaah; it is possible for anyone else to commit sins or make mistakes, but they are as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“They are those from whom We shall accept the best of their deeds and overlook their evil deeds. (They shall be) among the dwellers of Paradise........a promise of truth, which they have been promised” [al-Ahqaaf 46:16]."

Here Ibn Taymiyah speaks about Ali in his book (Al-Fataawa al-Kubra):

"With regard to ‘Ali ibn Abi Taalib being one of the Ahl al-Bayt, this is something concerning which there is no difference of opinion among the Muslims. It is so obvious to the Muslims that there is no need for evidence to prove it. Rather he is the best of the Ahl al-Bayt, the best of Bani Haashim after the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). It was proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) threw his cloak over ‘Ali, Faatimah, Hasan and Husayn and said, “O Allaah, these are the members of my household, so to remove Ar-Rijs (evil deeds and sins) from them and purify them with a thorough purification [cf. al-Ahzaab 33:33]."

"He also issued the infamous fatwa that setting out to visit the Prophet's (PBUH) grave is HARAM. Why anyone would bother painting the guy as a victim is ridiculous."

This again is a lie invented against the shaykh and the proof against it founds in his books. Taymiyah wrote in al-Tawassul wal Waseelah that visiting the grave of Rasulullah (scws) is mustahabb as long as it doesn't involve any bidca and traveling to Madina masjid is mustahabb but traveling only for the SOLE PURPOSE of visiting a grave is bidca and haram, because Prophet (scws) said that: "No one should set out purposely except to visit three mosques" and also a hadeeth from Abu Hurayra who said: "I met Basrah ibn Abi Basrah al-Ghifaari and he asked me, ‘Where are you coming from?’ I said, ‘From al-Toor [Sinai].’ He said, ‘If I had met you before you left, you would not have gone there! I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: ‘Do not travel except to three mosques." So this means that if a person wants to travel in order to draw closer to Allah then these are the three mosques (Makkah, Madinah, Al-Aqsa) he should travel and not other places. If someone travels to Madinah and his niyah is to travel for the masjid and the grave it's ok but not the niyah only for the grave. Visiting graves is a sunna but not traveling for that purpose.

"May the curse of Allaah be upon the Jews and the Christians; they have taken the graves of their Prophets as places of worship."

“Among the most evil of people upon whom the Hour will come when they are still alive are those who take graves as places of worship.”

Brother I hope that you could leave the dead culemaa alone and it's for your own good, jazakallah khayr.

Grant

Here's a history of Prophet's (scws) grave from Uthaymiin:

Praying in a mosque in which there is a grave falls into two categories:

(i) Either the grave was there before the mosque, and the mosque was built over the grave. It is essential to shun this mosque and not pray therein, and the one who built it must knock it down; if he does not do so, then the Muslim authorities must knock it down.

(ii) Or the mosque was there before the grave, and the deceased was buried after the mosque was built. In the case the grave must be dug up, and the remains taken out and buried with the people (in the graveyard).

As for praying in such a mosque, it is permissible so long as the grave is not in front of the worshipper, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) forbade praying in the direction of graves.

With regard to the grave of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) which is incorporated into his mosque, it is well known that the Mosque of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was built before his death, and was not built over his grave. It is also well known that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was not buried in the mosque, rather he was buried in his house which was separate from the mosque. At the time of al-Waleed ibn ‘Abd al-Malik he wrote to his governor in Madeenah, who was ‘Umar ibn ‘Abd al-‘Azeez, in 88 AH, ordering him to dismantle the Prophet’s Mosque and add to it the rooms of the wives of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). ‘Umar gathered the prominent people and fuqaha’, and read the letter of the caliph al-Waleed to them. That caused them distress, and they said: “Leave it as it is, that is better.” And it was narrated that Sa’eed ibn al-Musayyib denounced the incorporation of ‘Aa’ishah’s room into the mosque, as if he feared that the grave would be taken as a place of worship.

Umar wrote a letter to that effect to al-Waleed, and al-Waleed sent word to him ordering him to carry out his instructions, so ‘Umar had no other choice. So you see that the grave of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was not placed in the mosque, and the mosque was not built over it, so there are no grounds for those who try to quote this as evidence that people may be buried inside mosques or that mosques may be built over graves.

Salahuddiin, Masha Allah