Muslims for Progressive Values

[BlackVelvet]

Union.

I noticed how you danced around the issue of standing against ayats that are black and white in the Quran. The only thing I am going to say to you is logic is a beautiful thing and we have been given that capacity for a reason. There is a different between hating a sin and hating the sinner. A lot of people want to distort Islam to suit their purpose and a lot of people are extremely ignorant, distasteful and arrogantly narrow minded. Don't get caught up trying to be the polar opposite, you might fall off the other edge.

I will leave you with this verse for all of you in this thread.

*******Indeed, We sent Our messengers with evident truth, and We sent down with them the Book and the balance (of right and wrong), so that people might behave [with each other] with justice.********
(al-Hadid 57: 25)

[Beenaale_No1]

All Im saying is this

Let the Atheists be Atheists
Let the Christians be Christians
Let women dress how they want
Let men and women live how they want

How does this affect anyone's life I do not know. Does it affect you that a girl is walking around hijabless? As long as they not spouting anti-Islam nonsense and are being harmful to society, we should just live and let live.

That is my basic principles.

Being Gay, at least out in the open, is spreading anti-Islamic notions.

I didn't even mention gays. Gays are the least of our worries. How about everything else I mentioned?

You guys arguing about homosexuals as if it is our current biggest problem. How about women's rights, minorities rights, religious freedom, right to live different lifestyles, right for having diferent political views etc.

[union]

Union.

I noticed how you danced around the issue of standing against ayats that are black and white in the Quran. The only thing I am going to say to you is logic is a beautiful thing and we have been given that capacity for a reason. There is a different between hating a sin and hating the sinner. A lot of people want to distort Islam to suit their purpose and a lot of people are extremely ignorant, distasteful and arrogantly narrow minded. Don't get caught up trying to be the polar opposite, you might fall off the other edge.

I will leave you with this verse for all of you in this thread.

*******Indeed, We sent Our messengers with evident truth, and We sent down with them the Book and the balance (of right and wrong), so that people might behave [with each other] with justice.********
(al-Hadid 57: 25)

BV, the Qu’ranic ayah are hardly “black and white”. While it may ban the act of sodomy, would it be considered sinful to be a homosexual by nature? Like I said, homosexuality is something a very small portion of the population is involuntarily. I do accept that the sexual acts associating with homosexuality are sinful, but I reject the notion that being in the state of homosexuality in of itself would be sinful as that would mean people are born sinners which is a wholly Christian concept antithetical to the message of Islam. And while I may believe that sodomy is sinful, I do not seek to force my faith on homosexuals who wish to engage in their acts in the privacy of their homes. Simple as that. There is nothing radical nor polarizing about my stance, it is simply a live and let live philosophy.

[melo]

Beenaale: It doesn't matter how many times you spout your nonsense.. there are certain facts about diinta that are not up for discussion. The Quran and Sunnah clearly dictate how society should be organised, and unfortunately your liberal fetishes do not match.

[BlackVelvet]

Union lets say you have a country and you had full control of this made up country. Would you allow alcohol to be imported into this country or manufactured within this country? It is a very specific question, I am not asking about alcohol consumption.

[Beenaale_No1]

Beenaale: It doesn't matter how many times you spout your nonsense.. there are certain facts about diinta that are not up for discussion. The Quran and Sunnah clearly dictate how society should be organised, and unfortunately your liberal fetishes do not match.

Unlike you, I dont wanna impose my ideology on other people. All I ask for is for everybody to be free to do what they want [within the law]. But you folks want people to practise your version of Islam. Which is precisely the problem that is going in Southern Somalia right now - brutally.

[union]

Union lets say you have a country and you had full control of this made up country. Would you allow alcohol to be imported into this country or manufactured within this country? It is a very specific question, I am not asking about alcohol consumption.

If there was a market for alcohol, I would regulate and tax the market and let adults make their own decision whether or not to buy the alcohol. Like I said, I am a firm believer in individual liberty.

[BlackVelvet]

What about pornography and gambling?

[melo]

Beenaale: It doesn't matter how many times you spout your nonsense.. there are certain facts about diinta that are not up for discussion. The Quran and Sunnah clearly dictate how society should be organised, and unfortunately your liberal fetishes do not match.

Unlike you, I dont wanna impose my ideology on other people. All I ask for is for everybody to be free to do what they want [within the law]. But you folks want people to practise your version of Islam. Which is precisely the problem that is going in Southern Somalia right now - brutally.

There are you liberal fetishes coming out again. Islam dictates how people should act in the public space. The Quran didn't bring down legislation for the fun of it. Likewise, the prophet saws did not enact laws for no reason at all. There are certain things that need to be respected to protect the overarching interests of the community. In the private space, you can be a rock playing, pork eating dyke if you so choose to. But don't bring your dirty laundry out into the open and then expect to be protected. This isn't my ideology. This is Islam. I dare you to prove otherwise.

[abdisamad3]

Beenaale: It doesn't matter how many times you spout your nonsense.. there are certain facts about diinta that are not up for discussion. The Quran and Sunnah clearly dictate how society should be organised, and unfortunately your liberal fetishes do not match.

Unlike you, I dont wanna impose my ideology on other people. All I ask for is for everybody to be free to do what they want [within the law]. But you folks want people to practise your version of Islam. Which is precisely the problem that is going in Southern Somalia right now - brutally.

there is only one islamic version, and that is to follow the sunnah of the prophet (saw) anything else is shirk and fitna,so you choose my friend we are not forcing you to follow the prophet we are not trying to force you to stop drinking alcohol or going to clubs or hanging out with gay people, but we won't tolerate your bullshit of changing islam so it fits well with your personal life style and to throw out part's of islam that is against your life style and adopt the part's that dont go against your life style, get that through your head ok, and please stop acting like your a victim always complaining about some one is taking you out of islam , the only person that can take you out islam is you and your actions,,,

[union]

BV, you need to understand trying to ban sinful activities is an exercise in futility. It would just waste a tremendous amount of the state’s resources and people would still find a way to engage in those activities. Take for example the prohibition movement in the United States, how well did that turn out? The best thing the state can do is to regulate those markets to make sure there is no exploitation and abuse, and other than that let people enjoy what they wish.

[Beenaale_No1]

Beenaale: It doesn't matter how many times you spout your nonsense.. there are certain facts about diinta that are not up for discussion. The Quran and Sunnah clearly dictate how society should be organised, and unfortunately your liberal fetishes do not match.

Unlike you, I dont wanna impose my ideology on other people. All I ask for is for everybody to be free to do what they want [within the law]. But you folks want people to practise your version of Islam. Which is precisely the problem that is going in Southern Somalia right now - brutally.

There are you liberal fetishes coming out again. Islam dictates how people should act in the public space. The Quran didn't bring down legislation for the fun of it. Likewise, the prophet saws did not enact laws for no reason at all. There are certain things that need to be respected to protect the overarching interests of the community. In the private space, you can be a rock playing, pork eating dyke if you so choose to. But don't bring your dirty laundry out into the open and then expect to be protected. This isn't my ideology. This is Islam. I dare you to prove otherwise.

There isn't a nation that will 100% agree on the interpretations of diinta. This is a fact. Im NOT saying we should promote sinful activities, but if you restrict people from doing XYZ there will just be an underground world opened up and people will still find a way to do it. If we give people freedom to move around [within reason of course] then we will have a happier and more productive society.

[melo]

Look, just because there are a diversity of opinions, does not mean they are equally valid. Certain opinion are ridiculous and contradict basic Islamic tenets. I haven't at any stage debated whether your solution is more pragmatic. That is an entirely different discussion. All i was pointing out, is that it contradicts basic Islamic tenets.

[Alphanumeric]

BV, you need to understand trying to ban sinful activities is an exercise in futility. It would just waste a tremendous amount of the state’s resources and people would still find a way to engage in those activities. Take for example the prohibition movement in the United States, how well did that turn out? The best thing the state can do is to regulate those markets to make sure there is no exploitation and abuse, and other than that let people enjoy what they wish.

I think investing in education is a better route. Get em when they're young, no? (hooray for indoctrination )

I'm not sure what the fiqh is behind alcohol. My question is, to anyone willing to answer, what would be the ruling on a Christian who immigrated to the "Islamic State" (a historic era of your choosing) who ferments grapes to make wine, for personal pleasure and leisurely drinking with friends, in home? Is it the existence or the consumption of alcohol that is haram? Is the selling of alcohol prohibited for both Christians and Muslims? Same deal with someone who grows marijuana, or manufactures whatever narcotic.

[abdisamad3]

benaale are you saying there shouldn't be any law's at all as people will find a way to break the law anyway,,,so let's say some one wishing to walk naked in the street can do so with out any consequences, or a couple can have sex in the middle of the street if they wish to do so, does this even make any sense?