Idaajaa got bitch slapped.

[The`Republic]

The current Puntland Minister of Health Dr Saadaq Eenoow (Majeertene/Cusmaan Maxmuud) on his documentary of Osmaniya, writes UNESCO came to Somalia in 1967 specifically to lobby for Shire Jama's script and he makes the claim that the pro-Arabic script riled up the wadaado who started labeling Shire and his followers (Laatiin waa laa diin) for the printing of his magazine

Sanadkii 1967-kii, Shire Jaamac, kaddib markii uu dhiirri gelin ka heley guddigii UNESCO, wuxuu soo saarey buuggiisii uu ku magacaabey (Iftiinka - Aqoonta). Buuggaas oo ku soo baxay xuruuf laatiin ah, safxaddiisa ugu horreysa waxaa ku yiil xuruufta af-soomaaliga ee maanta qoran (B T J X .......).

Shan xaraf oo kuwaas kamid ah waxaa ku hor qorraa xuruuf carabi ah oo muujinayey dhawaaqa xarafku leeyahay. Shanta xaraf oo uu Shre dhawaaqooda beddeley wexey ahaayeen (X, Kh, Dh, C iyo Q). Muhimadda buugga Shire maaheyn waxa ku qorraa oo ahaa sheekooyinkii Wiil-Waal, bal wexey aheyd buugga oo ahaa bayaan lagu muujinayey in xuruufta laatiinku ey soo jareen masaafo xoog badan, boos adagna ey ka joogaan loollankii ey kula jireen xarfaha kale Kooxdii u ololeynayey xuruufta carabiga oo ey wadaaddadu hor boodayeen oo horey uga careysnaa imaatinkii guddigii UNESCO iyo waxa ka soo yeerey howlahoodii ayaa buugga Shire aad uga caroodey, wexeyna la soo baxeen halheyskoodii xoogga badnaa oo ey kula dirirayeen xuruufta laatiinka iyo raggda, kaas oo ahaa (laatiin waa laa diin), kaas oo ka dhigan in laatiinku uu la micne yahay diin la´aan.

....

6- Shire Jaamac Axmad oo ahaa ninka fartiisa laatiinka ah la doortey

sanadihii 1961-kii iyo 1966-kii, isagu kuma uusan jirin guddiga markii hore,

mardambe buuse ku soo biiri doonaa.

http://www.somaliawatch.org/archivefeb01/010423201.htm

[XimanJaale]

Ximan-

Found this small biography by historian/linguist David Laitin



And he writes how Shire argued back against the pro-Arabic script proponents who harassed him....Shire said Latin is like the electricity, whether from the west or not very practical to use for modern developing country



and the final Committee decision in 1972,



following the exact recommendation of UNESCO in 1966, page 15

Thanks for sharing, I think there is a biography book about him already made.

[Aristocat]

Republic, such is the level of phantasm in the minds of these folks that no amount of intellect or scholarly lecture can reduce it. But I guess you already knew that and you are just using this as an exercise to educate the wider public. Every time i come across these folks i am reminded of this statement "Arrogance like ignorance is a generator of stupidities. But while the latter is excused, arrogance-bred follies must be eschewed."

[Grant]

Didn't know the US used to pay him to come teach Somali

I want to clarify a few things since my name has come up repeatedly in this thread. Shire and Hirsi Magan Isse were both Somali language instructors at Columbia when I was there is 1966. The teaching materials were in a Latin script that I understood was developed jointly. Certainly one did not lead the other. In 1960 Abdullahi Haji Mahhamud published Afkayaga hoyo in his own Latin script (#5) that differed from the official one by only one letter:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=ntt_athr_dp ... evancerank

When the PC published a book of poetry in 1968, they used Muusa Galaal's script, who was then using hh for x. Hirsi was busy championing Osmanya for ideological reasons and Shire did not have a script in the running at that time. Still, we had no trouble reading what was written. The scripts are simply not that different. What made the real difference was the Kacaan regime making any script official. The bar ama baro program after that was what made the miracle.

I was 24 when I left Somalia and still plenty naive. But I had seen a lot and have had time to study and consider since. Give me some credit.

[HooBariiska]

^^ i think the argument should end with grants last comment but we know some people will never except the reality

[X.Playa]

Didn't know the US used to pay him to come teach Somali

I want to clarify a few things since my name has come up repeatedly in this thread. Shire and Hirsi Magan Isse were both Somali language instructors at Columbia when I was there is 1966. The teaching materials were in a Latin script that I understood was developed jointly. Certainly one did not lead the other. In 1960 Abdullahi Haji Mahhamud published Afkayaga hoyo in his own Latin script (#5) that differed from the official one by only one letter:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=ntt_athr_dp ... evancerank

When the PC published a book of poetry in 1968, they used Muusa Galaal's script, who was then using hh for x. Hirsi was busy championing Osmanya for ideological reasons and Shire did not have a script in the running at that time. Still, we had no trouble reading what was written. The scripts are simply not that different. What made the real difference was the Kacaan regime making any script official. The bar ama baro program after that was what made the miracle.

I was 24 when I left Somalia and still plenty naive. But I had seen a lot and have had time to study and consider since. Give me some credit.

Abdulahi also had the letter dh. Where as Muuse had the letter c and later his hh evolve into x. The question is known that the only difference between the latin script beside the numbers of letters in somali been less (21) the only real difference are the four sounds kh, dh, c and x were these letter coined by group efforts or by individuals and can the written somali say to have a founding father or founding fathers?

Thats the subject of this long debate.

[The`Republic]

Grant said Shire did not have a script in the running as late as 1968.

Grant, how come UNESCO in 1966 recommended a system devised by Shire Jama in that UN link I post?

How come I posted an original google books link published in1963 where Andreszejewski said used Shire's system.

How come I posted an original copy of Shire's magazine IFTIINKA AQOONTA from 1966 from a Somali book order site and where Ximan posted a professor from SOAS in London University who said it is the modern precursor to the exact script.

Again with your obsession with Hirsi Magan Ciise, a man no one mentioned in the record...I am surprised you say now he was for Osmaniya when you explicitly said before Magan evolved the Latin scrip and Shire got the credit because he was Marehan.

UNESCO 1966 Is Marehan invention?

This issue is beyond opinion. This is recorded history and not even from Somalis.

[Grant]

Republic,

I don't know what to tell you. The system Shire was using in January of 1966 was jointly formed with Hirsi and it varied considerably from any of the systems listed in Andrezewski's paper which I can see was dated in August. X was h with a line through it. C was '. Most of the vowels were singular. The system the PC used to publish Baadiye iyo Beled in 1968 was credited to Muusa Galaal. I wasn't even aware Shire had his own script until long after the fact. Andrezewski's recommendation in the UN paper is actually quite strange. He recommends Shire's version AFTER it had been merged with Muusa's, and we have seen that Shire added only one letter, so the reasoning for naming Shire alone is beyond me. Abdullahi Haji Mahhamud was really the one who came closest to the official version earliest and he gets no credit at all. So there is something definitely wrong with the credit assignment.

I spoke with John Johnson, who was there and closer than I to the situation throughout this period. He is as mystified by the way this panned out as I am.

[skywalker25]

Republic,

I don't know what to tell you. The system Shire was using in January of 1966 was jointly formed with Hirsi and it varied considerably from any of the systems listed in Andrezewski's paper which I can see was dated in August. X was h with a line through it. C was '. Most of the vowels were singular. The system the PC used to publish Baadiye iyo Beled in 1968 was credited to Muusa Galaal. I wasn't even aware Shire had his own script until long after the fact. Andrezewski's recommendation in the UN paper is actually quite strange. He recommends Shire's version AFTER it had been merged with Muusa's, and we have seen that Shire added only one letter, so the reasoning for naming Shire alone is beyond me. Abdullahi Haji Mahhamud was really the one who came closest to the official version earliest and he gets no credit at all. So there is something definitely wrong with the credit assignment.

I spoke with John Johnson, who was there and closer than I to the situation throughout this period. He is as mystified by the way this panned out as I am.

Grant you dealing with the youth raised on Kacaan fairytales. What you have to understand is that a smart individual like Voltage can not have a blind spot that large when it comes to differentiating between facts and fiction. Instead what Voltage and his like are doing is taking the baton and peddling the same lies and mistruths to the next generation. He trolls the net for little quotes -taken out of contexts- and copy and paste till he bores you with his lies...

This Marexaan man his claiming to have invented the Somali script is nothing short of pure fantasy. It's questionable how recent his whole tribe learned the somali language. My subtribe of Mohamed Abokor has more poets than his whole tribe. They have contributed zero in that field, yet they want to claim that it is they that put the Somali language on paper. I have never heard of something more ridiculous.

Voltage, stop your lies son...

[X.Playa]

I have noticed something something was wrong with wardheernews campaign to crown shire jaamac as the lone founders of the somali script. One look at the 1961 linguistic report and the 1966 unesco recommendation is enough to raise suspicion of shire jaamacs claim.

In the 1961 study shires script is as the following.

b t j ch x d r s sh dh c g f q k l m n w h y
Total 21. Page 56 in the linguistic report of 1961.

In the 1966 unesco report

b d t dh g k q f s sh kh 0 oh h j m n r l w y
Total 21, page 3 of the unesco
Report.

Now its obvious that the modern script differ from both of shires versions above. But as Grants noticed too proff Goosh in the 1966 report recomends shires script (the 1966 version the seconds script above) which is different then the final script, so its obvious to any critical mind that some how Abdullahi Or Muuse version was mixed with shire some how along the way which resulted in the final version of 1972 and there is some missing documentations of this narrative.

Now later during the kacaan idaajaa, aw jaamac and their likes have glossed over these above contradiction and used prof Gooshs confusing report of 1966 to give their man the soul credit.


Now regarding shires book of 1967 iftiinka aqoonta, it came a year later after unesco report after which shire used the amalgamated new version to write his book, so thre script on that book isn't his.

This issue needs an impartial critical mind which most of the kacaanist crew lacks when it comes to their kins men.

[Thuganomics]

Imikana ma waxey odhan Grant waa Idoor

[Sanbalolshe]

This is shires script

b, d, t, dh, g, k, q, f, s, sh, kh,0.oh, h. J, m, n, r, l, w, y.

He got modern x wrong and modern c wrong, so tell me how are we using his script.?



This is muuse galaals script.

b, d, t,&, g,.k,q,f, s, sh, kh, c, x, h, j, m, n, r, l, w, y.

Muuse galaals script only got the letter& which is my repersentation of his a look like symbol for the letter dh wrong.


So any sane human can say the modern somali script is closer to galaals by 20 out of 21 letter.

Where as shire got 19 out of 21.


Now stfu and stop wasting our time with
Your tribal shit.

That post alone would've sufficed and saved you alot of time and effort to shut up these deluded kids of the kacaan. But I'm sure the debate will have been beneficial to many people who took the time to read it nevertheless. A simple re-count of the current Somali alphabet, and comparing it to the original alphabets founded by each man in question will vindicate Mr X.play's case, and thats even in the absence of 'testimonies', and/or questionable 'unesco reports' lol.

[Warsame101]

XPlaya, one would think -- after so many years of being on this forum -- you would have toned down on your tribal chauvinism but instead are so obscured by this diligent notion that Somalia's greatest minds/inventors hailed solely from the Reer Sheekh Isxaaq family.

Is it perhaps that difficult to objectively view Shire Jaamac's contribution/achievement as a service to the Somali nation (for which the linguist primarly intended) as opposed to a tribal achievement?

Reer Sheekh Isxaaq have contributed greatly to the fabric of our history -- no doubt about that -- but to claim each and every notable achievement...

The Somali orthography that we currently employ is the brainchild of Shire Jaamac. It is widely established and TheRepublic did a splendid job to remind you of that.

Shire -- in all his pamplets and drillbooks -- made sure to include a page illustrating his script.

The image below is from one of the issues of Iftiinka Aqoonta (1967). It is the exact same script that we are currently using.

[X.Playa]

Warsame101,

Altruism and selfless nationalism should be an alien ethics for a man like you, who rewrote history by depicting the late somali dictator Afweyne as a national hero aking to Nelson Mandela.

No amount of Kacaan faith and its devotees propaganda efforts will gloss over a pure logical conclusion as Sanbaloosge effortlessly demonstrated. We as yet to see a Daarood that condemns his clans men efforts to distort somali history.

Not on this thread regarding their chief propagandist Idaajaa nor their late Dervish Gurue the consummate revisionist Aw Jaamac in the the Dervish thread.

And you have the audacity to accuse me of clannish motives known well that I have always been true to the ethics of documentations . And if the record shows something amiss one should stick to it regardless towards what direction the evidence points, and on both subjects the evidence is straight forward and as usual your Daaroods credited a man
of their lineage a legacy he didn't deserve.

The 1967 book after unesco report doesn't change the argument, what happened is simply shire plagiarized parts of Abdullahi Mahammed and Muuse Galaals script 5 and 4 respectively without crediting either and wrote that book which his cohorts cite as prove, the irony of citing plagiarism as pioneering invention is mind numbing.

[The`Republic]

Grant-

I hope you realize the entire reason why I have dug up all the research presented here is because of our first debates on the issue. If you remember correctly, though you have since foregone this argument, but you first used to argue Ayan Hirsi's father, Hirsi Magan Ciise, was really the originator of the script attributed to Shire Jaamac Axmed but that because Hirsi Magan was in opposition credit was given to Shire. This is what you used to argue before I did the research and found the written.

Now, because I am using my phone, I cannot give you a final response but I will tomorrow. Shire was your Somali language teacher in New York before coming to Somalia and so I have always taught that there is a personal issue involved here for why you always try to tarnish Shire's history.

First of all, you were a little American boy under the mentorship of Hirsi Magan and you even made the observation here Shire did not even a script in 1968.

An observation that is baseless considering in NINETEEN SIXTY THREE (1963), when you were a teen in America who had never even heard of Somalia...BB Andrezejewski and IM Lewis said they used Shire's orginal script for best form. Or that in NINETEEN SIXTY SIX (1966), again before you had even come to Somalia UNESCO drafted a report coauthored by Goosh that compared Shire to all scripts including Muuse Galaal and recommended him.

I have also posted, among other things Professor Tanzania (Isaaq) and Professor Enoow (Majerten/Osman), another well respected Somali scholar and the current Puntland minister, both share their observations about Shire as the originator of the current sfript which they describe first hand.

I also posted Professor Martin Orwin, speaking in perfect Somali, a professor of linguistic in SOAS and a desciple of IM lewis and a lecturer in Somali language CLEARLY AND PERFECTLY describe the history of Somali orthography from the 1890 to 1972 and describe in perfect detail how Muuse Galaal and Shire's scripts were different and says clearly Shire Jaamac as the man who is rightfully credited with the Somali script.

I will add on to this in detail to tomorrow.

Xplaya-

Watch the Professor's video, he describes in clear difference and in a very detailed way using linguistic language the comparison of the scripts that existed and concludes Shire was a man who was far ahead of his contemporaries including Muuse Galaal and is the one man who can be credited with the script.

Watch the video and we can continue the discussion there. You are not an authority to counter act Professor Martin.