Somali Historians come in including you James Dahl

[BlackVelvet]

Yeah I wonder if it would be a good thing or a bad thing if it was possible to scientifically answer that question. Imagine finding out that you are not the qabiil you thought you were, how much of a difference would it make to you? Dad badan ayaa depression ku dhici laha lol

[Meyle]

I think it would be a good thing because Somalis would leave the qabiil based identity and move towards a national identity like the Eritreans or Ethiopians even Djiboutians.


True, dad badan ayuu depression ku dhici lahaa, we have already seen how haplogroups and various subclades destroyed the myths of a common ancestor.

[Bilis]

There was no such thing as northern Somalia, even today it doesn't exist. It's Somaliland

Somaliland proper is basically Togdheer and Woqooyi Galbeed i.e. Isaaq territory. Awdal is today a Gadabuursi degaan, though it wasn't a single clan stronghold at the time. Together, these two areas form northwestern Somalia.

Northeastern Somalia -- where the most northern point in the country, Aluula, is found -- is Puntland.

Well, places like Seylac were part of the Axumite empire, so it's not strange that you'll find stone pillars with Sabaean script and the first muslims just reached the shores of the Axumite empire.

The city and the surrounding areas were always occupied by foreigners until Isaaq took over the city and the region by force in the 18th century, chasing out the Arabs and Turks. Emir Sharmaarke Cali Saalax installed Sharia Law. The Qadi of the city was also a Somali man, who was from the Hawiye clan. It was the beginning of a new chapter because it was the first time the city was ruled by Somalis.

No sxb. Northern Somalia was already inhabited by ancestral Somalis. The Gulf Arabs referred to them as "Berbers" and called the area the "Bilad al-Barbar" ("Land of the Berbers"). There was no clan system at the time; the population was too small. There were just "Berbers".

There's a Greek document from the 1st century CE, the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea, that describes in detail Northeast Africa during that time period. It similarly indicates that northern Somalia was both inhabited and ruled by the Berbers, while the area to the west in the present-day Ethiopian highlands was Abyssinia. These Berbers had autonomous kingdoms, sort of similar to how Somalis later formed their own sultanates (Majeerteen Sultanate, Warsangali Sultanate, Geledi Sultanate, Ajuuraan Sultanate, etc.):



You can read a translation of the Periplus here.

Ibn Battuta later visited Mogadishu during the 13th century. He wrote that the city was at the time ruled by a "Berber" Sultan originally from the Bilad al-Barbar. The Sultan was probably an early Hawiye settler in the area, who had moved down from the north.

Similarly, Shihab ad-Din wrote in his Futuh al-Habash, which describes the Sultanate of Adal's conquest of Abyssinia during the Middle Ages, that Meit was a Harti stronghold.

So Somalis have actually ruled present-day Somalia for centuries.

[Meyle]

Somaliland is former British Somaliland just like Somalia is former Somalia Italiana. There's no such thing as northwestern Somalia, we were never part of Somalia and the Somali republic dissolved in 1991.

If you didn't know.. Isaaq inhabit all the regions of Somaliland, from the outskirts of Lughaya in Awdal to Sool and Sanaag.

Isaaq territory is not only Maroodi Jeex and Togdheer.


I'm familiar with Futuh al-Habasha and Somalis being referred to as Berbers and the capital of eastern Berbers being Berbera etc. but that's beside the point.

Seylac was part of the Axumite empire, it doesn't matter if Somalis lived there or not. The first muslims that reached the shores of Seylac actually reached the shores of the Axumite empire.

That city was always ruled by non Somalis even during the Ifat and Adal sultanates. It was conquered by Somalis, in this case Emir Sharmaarke Cali Saalax who was Isaaq and his soldiers who also were Isaaq in the 18th century. It was the first time a Somali man conquered and ruled the town.

[Bilis]

Somaliland is former British Somaliland just like Somalia is former Somalia Italiana. There's no such thing as northwestern Somalia, we were never part of Somalia and the Somali republic dissolved in 1991.

Actually, Somalia was formed on July 1, 1960 through the merger of the Trust Territory of Somalia and the State of Somaliland, not Italian Somaliland and British Somaliland.

So present-day Somaliland has always been a part of Somalia in the post-colonial period.

If you didn't know.. Isaaq inhabit all the regions of Somaliland, from the outskirts of Lughaya in Awdal to Sool and Sanaag.

Isaaq territory is not only Maroodi Jeex and Togdheer.

Oh, come on now...

That could be said of any clan, including the Rahanweyn in Hargeisa. The fact remains, though, that Awdal is a Gadabuursi degaan and SSC is a Harti stronghold.

I'm familiar with Futuh al-Habasha and Somalis being referred to as Berbers and the capital of eastern Berbers being Berbera etc. but that's beside the point.

The Futuh al-Habash doesn't actually state that. It only mentions that Meit was a Harti stronghold.

Seylac was part of the Axumite empire, it doesn't matter if Somalis lived there or not.

The Periplus of the Erythraean Sea is quite clear that the Berbers lived in and ruled Zeila, which was referred to then as "Avalites".

The Berbers did, though, pay tribute to the more powerful Axum... just like the later Adal Sultanate did to the Abyssinian Empire, until Ahmed Gurey had enough and sacked the place.

The first muslims that reached the shores of Seylac actually reached the shores of the Axumite empire.

No sxb. They reached independent Berber territory. No Axumites lived in the area.

That city was always ruled by non Somalis even during the Ifat and Adal sultanates. It was conquered by Somalis, in this case Emir Sharmaarke Cali Saalax who was Isaaq and his soldiers who also were Isaaq in the 18th century. It was the first time a Somali man conquered and ruled the town.

The man who built the great wall around Zeila during the Middle Ages was Gerad Lado, who was likely an early Darod.

Unlike the widespread title Suldaan, Gerad was historically mainly used by the Darod.

[James Dahl]

Minor pedantic point but it is not clear exactly where Avalites is. Tunis for instance, the modern capital of Tunisia, is the successor to Carthage, but Carthage is actually quite far from Tunis (though with suburban sprawl Carthage is in the greater metro area). Avalites is probably not modern Zeila but probably nearby, like Babylon is near Baghdad and Carthage is near Tunis.

That is if the identification is correct, Avalites is in the general area of Zeila but it could be near Djibouti or Sheikh or any number of coastal cities in the area.

[Meyle]

Actually, Somalia was formed on July 1, 1960 through the merger of the Trust Territory of Somalia and the State of Somaliland, not Italian Somaliland and British Somaliland.

So present-day Somaliland has always been a part of Somalia in the post-colonial period.

Wrong! Somalia is derived from Somalia Italiana which was the colonial name. When former British Somaliland united with former Somalia Italiana in July 1, 1960. The Somali republic was created. We have never been part of Somalia and never will. You can lie to yourself but that won't change the reality.

Oh, come on now...

That could be said of any clan, including the Rahanweyn in Hargeisa. The fact remains, though, that Awdal is a Gadabuursi degaan and SSC is a Harti stronghold.

What kind of logic is that?

Are you trying to deny the land we settle? Isaaq sub sub sub sub clans specifically from Sacad Muuse settle in the outskirts of Lughaya which is in Awdal.

Less than 500 Raxanweyn in Hargeisa, again bad example.

Sanaag is Isaaq majority and half of that region belongs to Isaaq. How can it be Harti stronghold?

On the other hand, Dhulbahante is majority in Sool, nonetheless 1/3 of Sool belongs to Isaaq.

The Futuh al-Habash doesn't actually state that. It only mentions that Meit was a Harti stronghold.

I never wrote that the Futuh al-Habasha stated that. I wrote that I was familiar with the book itself, as well as Somalis being referred to as eastern Berbers and that their capital was Berbera.

The Periplus of the Erythraean Sea is quite clear that the Berbers lived in and ruled Zeila, which was referred to then as "Avalites".

The Berbers did, though, pay tribute to the more powerful Axum... just like the later Adal Sultanate did to the Abyssinian Empire, until Ahmed Gurey had enough and sacked the place.

Again you're wrong. It was part of Axum, wether it was direct or indirect doesn't matter.

On the opposite side of the Red Sea, the 1st millenium BC witnessed the emergence of the Axumite Kingdom, encompassing what are now Eritra, the Ethiopian province of Tigray and the northwest of Somaliland.

Here's another quote disproving your argument.

Clearly, most of the Berber ports listed in the Periplus lay along the coast of present-day Somaliland, which was then part of, or a vassal to, the Axumite Kingdom

No sxb. They reached independent Berber territory. No Axumites lived in the area.

Wether eastern Berbers lived there or not doesn't matter. They reached the shores of Seylac which was part of the Axumite empire.

In other words, they reached the shores of the Axumite empire.

The man who built the great wall around Zeila during the Middle Ages was Gerad Lado, who was likely an early Darod.

Unlike the widespread title Suldaan, Gerad was historically mainly used by the Darod.

Wether he was Darood or not doesn't matter. He didn't rule the city nor did he rule the surrouning areas, matter of fact no Somali did until Emir Sharmaarke Cali Saalax took over the town.

Besides how can Garad Lado be Darood when the father of Darood clan Cabdiraxmaan al Jabarti died approximately 50 years before this man was born.

If he was a descendant, he would be in your main abtirsi but he's not.

[gurey25]

Unlike the widespread title Suldaan, Gerad was historically mainly used by the Darod.

Garaad is a title used by allot of cushtic people, the hararis used it.

[James Dahl]

Garaad seems to imply states that were originally part of Adal, that was the title of their regional governors.

[XimanJaale]

Garaad seems to imply states that were originally part of Adal, that was the title of their regional governors.

The first mention of Garaad in Somali clans abtirsi are Reer Garaad of the Marehan right? I think Reer Gaaraad count around 10 to Marehan.

[James Dahl]

Garaad seems to imply states that were originally part of Adal, that was the title of their regional governors.

The first mention of Garaad in Somali clans abtirsi are Reer Garaad of the Marehan right? I think Reer Gaaraad count around 10 to Marehan.

My own (admittedly extremely incomplete) list is 19 generations from Garaad ibn Mataan up to Mareexaan.

There are a couple Garaad-doms that are quite old, the first Warsangeli Garaad was in the late 1200s, which is around when the Ifat Sultanate was expanding into Ethiopia. There are probably a ton of Garaad-doms historically that we (or at least I) know nothing about. In regards to the Mareexaan Garaad we don't have as firm a date though I think we can find a ballpark figure. Amir Nur lived circa 1550, he is a 10th generation descendant from Boqor Maxamed Da'uud, the first Mareexaan Garaad is a 5th generation descendant of Boqor Maxamed Da'uud, so 5 times 32 years per generation = 160 years difference, or about 1390, which is around the same general era and corresponds with the period where the Sultanate of Ifat was expanding. Using the same method we can roughly (and inaccurately) date the collapse of the unified Somali kingdom under it's last Boqor to 1230, which is probably too late to be accurate, since Ifat was already an independent state by the 1180s. If we assume that Maxamed Da'uud died let's say a generation before the Ifat Sultanate went off to create their own state, that would be around 1150, which I think is a reasonable date, which means we are probably missing a few generations in the Mareexaan abtirsi somewhere.

Garaad wasn't just a regional title for Ifat/Adal, the Ajuuraan seem to have also used the title for their regional governors. After the Ajuuraan vs Orma wars in southern Somalia in the 1400s the Garsoogude Garaad-dom in Luuq was founded. What we know of history is the Ajuuraan had overlordship of all of the south at this time, so clearly the Garsoogude were subordinate to the Ajuuraan. My own theory is Garaad is an early Somali word similar to Wali in Arabic, basically a governor, or the Somali equivalent of an Ethiopian "Shum", a hereditary regional governor.

It's unclear if the word originates in Somali though, The Hadiya ruler was a Garaad, and the Hadiya are more closely related to Sidama people.

[XimanJaale]

There are a couple Garaad-doms that are quite old, the first Warsangeli Garaad was in the late 1200s, which is around when the Ifat Sultanate was expanding into Ethiopia. There are probably a ton of Garaad-doms historically that we (or at least I) know nothing about. In regards to the Mareexaan Garaad we don't have as firm a date though I think we can find a ballpark figure. Amir Nur lived circa 1550, he is a 10th generation descendant from Boqor Maxamed Da'uud, the first Mareexaan Garaad is a 5th generation descendant of Boqor Maxamed Da'uud, so 5 times 32 years per generation = 160 years difference, or about 1390, which is around the same general era and corresponds with the period where the Sultanate of Ifat was expanding.

Garaad wasn't just a regional title for Ifat/Adal, the Ajuuraan seem to have also used the title for their regional governors. After the Ajuuraan vs Orma wars in southern Somalia in the 1400s the Garsoogude Garaad-dom in Luuq was founded. What we know of history is the Ajuuraan had overlordship of all of the south at this time, so clearly the Garsoogude were subordinate to the Ajuuraan. My own theory is Garaad is an early Somali word similar to Wali in Arabic, basically a governor, or the Somali equivalent of an Ethiopian "Shum", a hereditary regional governor.

It's unclear if the word originates in Somali though, The Hadiya ruler was a Garaad, and the Hadiya are more closely related to Sidama people.

Interesting theory. The word Garaad if you break it down it will be like Gar-aad Gar= just Aad=go maybe relates to a just ruler. I also believe Garaad is a early Somali word, and ironically the Somalis in the present day are the only ethnic group in the horn that use this word alot or exclusively.

[James Dahl]

I think you're on the right track with that word etymology, though the Somali language has changed over the last 600 years and meanings/pronunciation may have drifted over the centuries.

In older Ethiopian records they write "Geraad" but with the Ethiopian short e, which is halfway between Somali "e" and "i", that may have been the original pronunciation and it has become Garaad over time, like the original Somali pronounciation of 'camel' was Gaal, like in "Ab-gaal" or "Gaal-kac-yo", and it has become "Geel" over the centuries.

[XimanJaale]

I think you're on the right track with that word etymology, though the Somali language has changed over the last 600 years and meanings/pronunciation may have drifted over the centuries.

Yh there are many Somali words that have changed or are endangered.

Somali title's:

Beel-Daajiye Beel=clan Daajiye=?
Ugaas=?
Suldaan= possibly loan word from Sultan?
Islaan=? women?
Nabadoon= relative new word introduced by Kacaan to abolish tribalism Nabad=peace Doon=retriever

The word= Aw are also used alot in Somali names such as Awsame, Awfaarax, Awcali, AwMaxamuud,etc I think it has religious connection to it? possible. Like if a person is a Islamic teacher or scholar, the word Aw will be put infront of his name.

[James Dahl]

Yeah Suldaan is from Sultan. Arabic Sultan is سُلطَان but Somali doesn't have the طَ sound.