Who are the Salafis?

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Koronto91
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Re: Who are the Salafis?

Post by Koronto91 »

[quote="Luq_Ganane"]Adanboy,

Allahu Calam, but I'm almost 99% sure that there is a Hadith of Rasululah (SAW), where he says that you cannot rebel against a Muslim ruler. For instance, during the time of At Tabicin (the successors to the Sahabah, and the second best generation every after the sahabah), there was a BIG tyrrant, by the name of Al Hajjaj Bin Yusuf Athaqafi. He killed thousands of Muslims, and he also killed big scholars like Sacid Bin Jubair Raximahullah. However there were companions of the Prophet there, as well as the most eminent of the successers, and they didn't rebel against him. Why? Because of the Hadith.

So, whats the Xikmah or wisdom behind the Hadith? Rebelling against a Muslim Tyrant leader brings about more evil then good. Example? Siyad Barre. While Siyad Barre didn't rule by the book of Allah, he was still a Muslim ruler, and his overthrow has brought about 20 years of nonsense. (No qabil sentiment here). For instance if Caydid was to take over control of the entire Somalia, and was the ruler of the country I cannot rebel against him, because by doing so, the evil that would come out would be more then the Khair. As for some of the Shayukh's fatawa about the Jihad in Somalia or lackthereof, I'm not exactly sure what they have said or not. However, we all know that suicide bombings for example are Xaaram, as the Culema have made fatawa against it. However, I can see how fighting against Xabashi is a true Jihad so I'm kind of torn against this. Allah knows best. However Adanboy and everybody else: Lets Seek knowledge, and learn about our relgion. Lets learn about our Caqeedah, the Tawhid of Ar-Rahman, the Ahadith of Rasululah, and the way of the beloved Sahabah. Allah knows best. Cool[/quote]

Am I reading this or are my eyes deceiving me?

Luq,

They got to you, Walee.

The Salafi Jadiid were a sect produced by the Saudi Monarchy under the watchful eye of the U.S. government. Their main purpose was to counter Al-Itihad and Takfiri groups e.g. Osama's group.

The Salafi Jadiids use the above mentioned "Hadith" about not attacking a Muslim leader. But why do they say this? Because the Saudi Monarchy does not want to be deposed from their ill-gotten seat. So, to stop any kind of revolt, they inject such ideas in to the mainstream society, telling people that they can not rebel against an established government.

After, Hassan & Hussein were both martryed, the remaining children of the Companions of the Prophet (saw): Zubair Ibn Asma, Abdullahi Ibn Umar Bin al Khatab and others all joined a revolt against the tyranny of Yazid Ibn Muawiyah, who was a corrupt leader and a known drunkard.

If these noble children of the Khaliful Rashidun revolted against tyranny over 1300 years ago, then how can any Muslim be denied to rise up against injustice & tyranny?

Salafi Jadiid also support Abdullahi Yusuf and the Ethiopian invassion, because they are enemies of the UIC (Al-Itihad).

Salafi Jadiid=BS.
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Re: Who are the Salafis?

Post by *Arabman »

So, Salafi Jadiid was invented with the help of America?
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Re: Who are the Salafis?

Post by Koronto91 »

[quote="*Arabman"]So, Salafi Jadiid was invented with the help of America?[/quote]


Yes, they were formed as a result of Iraq's invassion of Kuwait. When the Saudi Monarchy called on America to help them, the question of can an infidel army land in Arabia to fight another Muslim country was on everyone's lips. The U.S. government & Saudi Monarchy reached a deal to form a new sect to divert people's attention and counter popular sentiment against U.S. presence in Arabia. Sh. Ibn Baz was against this sect, but was sidelined.
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Re: Who are the Salafis?

Post by Koronto91 »

Salafi Jadiids Believe in 3 Principles:

1-No Muslim can revolt against any government (Muslim or non-Muslim). Doing so will disrupt "Peace". No matter how corrupt or vile a regime is, no Muslim can say anything negative about them or show any kind of discontent. Instead, Muslims should pray that Allah show such a government the right path.

2-No Jihad, defense Yes, but No calling anyone to Jihad. Thus the UIC's call for Jihad was false and thus they should have been dismantled.

3-Everyone but the Salafi Jadiids commit some sort of Bid'a (innovations). Salafi Jadiids are better than others, because while they commit no Bid'a, everyone else commits it.

Egocentric & self-righteous sect whose members have no respect for other scholars. They call Sh. Qardawi "The Barking Dog"
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Re: Who are the Salafis?

Post by Salahuddiin »

There are lot of authentic ahadeeth about not revolting against MUSLIM rulers, no matter how bad they are. Here's one for example:

Hudhaifah (ra) narrated in a longer hadeeth that the Messenger of Allaah (scws) said, "There will come leaders who will not follow my guidance nor will they follow my Sunnah. There will be amongst them men who will have the hearts of devils in the bodies of humans." He (Hudhaifah) asked, "What should I do O Messenger of Allaah if I reach that?" He replied, "You should hear and obey the ruler. Even if he flogs your back and takes your wealth you should still hear and obey." (Muslim)

Then there's another ahadeeth from where we can see that our obeying is obligatory (of course in everything that's halaal, you can't obey the creted by disobeying the Creator) until their kufr is clear. Then it's allowed to revolt. Of course this also needs xikma and necessary preparation.

Now most of the modern day leaders are kuffaar no doubt about that, but there could be few who's cases are little bit unclear for masses. But still there isn't ONE single leader that would govern by Allah's law or wouldn't help kuffaar against muslims...
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Re: Who are the Salafis?

Post by Luq_Ganane »

Sallahudin,

Thats exactly the Hadith I was talking about, but didn't want to misquote it. The Hadith is very clear. For one, let me go on the record that I don't like the passive, lazy form of Islam that the Saudi Monarchy preaches, however in this particular case the Hadith is clear, and we must all stop at the Quran or the Hadith and accept it. However the Hadith doesn't mention Kuffar (Ehtiopians) or Murtadiin so thats kind of shaky. However one thing is for sure: You can't hastilly label a Muslim ruler a Murtad to justify a "Jihad" against him.
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Re: Who are the Salafis?

Post by Koronto91 »

Luq,

That hadith is reffering to a righteos Muslim leader. Not a corrupt, Kaafir helper or one who attained power through the help of a Kaafir country.

Or one who does not govern people using the Shari'ah. One of the things that leads to Apostasy is to govern people by using man-made laws rather than the Shari'ah.
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Re: Who are the Salafis?

Post by Luq_Ganane »

Koronto,

Sxb be careful. Theres 10 acts that constitute apostasy I think, and I didn't read not ruling by the book of Allah. Not ruling by the book of Allah makes you a Zaalim, according to the ayah, however that does not consitute Riddah per se. Akhi to say somebody left the fold of Islam is a big deal, and one must have clear evidences. However I think I heard something like aiding the Kuffar against your brother, or other acts of treachery consitutes Riddah so thats another case. However being oppressive, or not ruling by the book of Allah does not constitue riddah as far as I know, but I'll go find out from classical Islamic sources and let you know.
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Re: Who are the Salafis?

Post by Koronto91 »

Luq,

I am in no position to accuse anyone of being a Murtad, but check this out:

Question:
What are the actions which, if a Muslim does them, he will be an apostate from Islam?.

Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.

Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

Note that Allaah has commanded all people to enter Islam and to adhere to it and to beware of whatever is contrary to it. He sent His Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) to call mankind to that. He tells us that those who follow him will be guided and that those who turn away from him have gone astray. In many verses He warns against the means that lead to apostasy and all forms of shirk and kufr. The scholars (may Allaah have mercy on them) have said, when discussing apostasy, that a Muslim may apostatize from his religion by doing many acts that nullify Islam, which makes it permissible to shed his blood and seize his wealth, and which will put him beyond the pale of Islam. Among the most serious and most common of these things are ten which were mentioned by Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhaab and other scholars (may Allaah have mercy on them all). We will mention them in brief here, so that you and others can beware of them, in the hope that you will be safe and sound. We will also explain a little about them after mentioning each one.

1 – Shirk or associating others in worship with Allaah. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, Allaah forgives not (the sin of) setting up partners (in worship) with Him, but He forgives whom He wills, sins other than that, and whoever sets up partners in worship with Allaah, has indeed strayed far away”

[al-Nisa’ 4:116]

“Verily, whosoever sets up partners (in worship) with Allaah, then Allaah has forbidden Paradise to him, and the Fire will be his abode”

[al-Maa’idah 5:72]

That includes praying to the dead, seeking their help, making vows and offering sacrifices to them or to the jinn or to the grave.

2 – Whoever sets up intermediaries between himself and Allaah, asks them to intercede, and puts his trust in them, is a kaafir according to scholarly consensus.

3 – Whoever does not regard the mushrikeen as kaafirs, or doubts that they are kaafirs, or regards their way as correct, is a kaafir.

4 – Whoever believes that anything other than the teaching of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is more complete than his teachings, or that the rulings of anyone else are better than his rulings – such as those who prefer the rule of false laws to his rulings – is a kaafir.

5 – Whoever hates any part of that which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) brought, even if he acts in accordance with it, is a kaafir, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“That is because they hate that which Allaah has sent down (this Qur’aan and Islamic laws); so He has made their deeds fruitless”

[Muhammad 47:9]

6 – Whoever makes fun of anything in the religion of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), or makes fun of any texts that refer to rewards or punishments, is a kaafir. The evidence for that is the verse (interpretation of the meaning):

“Say: Was it at Allaah, and His Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and His Messenger that you were mocking?

Make no excuse; you disbelieved after you had believed”

[al-Tawbah 9:65-66]

7 – Sihr (witchcraft) – including spells to turn one person against another or to make someone love another. Whoever does this or approves of it is a kaafir. The evidence for that is the verse (interpretation of the meaning):

“but neither of these two (angels) taught anyone (such things) till they had said, ‘We are for trial, so disbelieve not (by learning this magic from us)’”

[al-Baqarah 2:102]

8 – Supporting the mushrikeen and helping them against the Muslims. The evidence for that is the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Awliyaa’ (friends, protectors, helpers), they are but Awliyaa’ of each other. And if any amongst you takes them (as Awliyaa’), then surely, he is one of them. Verily, Allaah guides not those people who are the Zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust)”

[al-Maa'idah 5:51]

9 – Whoever believes that some people are allowed to operate outside the law of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) just as al-Khidr operated outside the law of Moosa (peace be upon him) is a kaafir, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers”

[Aal ‘Imraan 3:85]

10 – Turning away from the religion of Allaah, not learning it and not acting in accordance with it. The evidence for that is the verse (interpretation of the meaning):

“And who does more wrong than he who is reminded of the Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of his Lord, then turns aside therefrom? Verily, We shall exact retribution from the Mujrimoon (criminals, disbelievers, polytheists, sinners)”

[al-Sajdah 32:22]

With regard to all of these acts that nullify Islam, it makes no difference whether a person is joking, serious or afraid, unless he is forced to do it. All of them are very serious, and they all happen a great deal. The Muslim should beware of them and fear falling into them. We seek refuge with Allaah from the things that may incur His wrath and painful punishment. May Allaah send blessings and peace upon the best of His creation, Muhammad, and upon his family and companions.

The fourth category includes those who believe that the systems and laws devised by men are better than the sharee’ah of Islam, or equal to it; or that it is permissible to refer to them for judgements and rulings, even if he believes that referring to sharee’ah is better; or that the Islamic system is not fit to be applied in the twentieth century; or that it was the cause of the Muslims’ backwardness; or that it should be limited to a person’s relationship with his Lord and not have anything to do with the other affairs of life

The fourth category also includes those who think that carrying out the ruling of Allaah by cutting off the hand of the thief or stoning the married adulterer is not appropriate in the modern age.

That also includes: everyone who believes that it is permissible to rule according to something other than the laws of Allaah with regard to interactions, hudood punishments or other matters, even if he does not believe that that is better than the ruling of sharee’ah, because by doing so he is regarding as permissible something that Allaah has forbidden according to consensus, and everyone who regards as permissible something that Allaah has forbidden and is well known to be forbidden in Islam, such that no Muslim has any excuse for not knowing that it is forbidden, such as adultery, alcohol and riba, and ruling by something other than the sharee’ah of Allaah, is a kaafir according to the consensus of the Muslims.

We ask Allaah to help us all to do that which pleases Him, and to guide us and all the Muslims to His Straight Path, for He is All Hearing, Ever-Responsive. May Allaah send blessings and peace upon our Prophet Muhammad and his family and companions.

Islam Q&A

Source: http://islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=31807 ... t=apostasy
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Re: Who are the Salafis?

Post by *Arabman »

Luq_Ganane, what if the Muslim leader doesn't pray or fast, drinks alcohol, gambles and commits zina/ma'siya in American/European cities?
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Re: Who are the Salafis?

Post by Luq_Ganane »

Arabman,

As far as I know those are all acts of "Macsiya", lakin Allahu Calam if it constitues riddah or not. Not praying is very serious, and theres many Ahadith talking about it.


Koronto,

I saw the part about aiding the Mushrikin against he Muslims. Again, that is a sticky issue. Allah knows best.
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Re: Who are the Salafis?

Post by Koronto91 »

Luq,

The Jadiids call everyone else Bid'a commiters, how do they explain that?

How do they also explain insulting religious scholars from Sh. Qardawi to Sh. Umal?
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Re: Who are the Salafis?

Post by musika man »

[quote="Koronto91"]Luq,

The Jadiids call everyone else Bid'a commiters, how do they explain that?

How do they also explain insulting religious scholars from Sh. Qardawi to Sh. Umal?[/quote]

^^^

you haven't answered the question. what is salafi? are they old wahabis. salafi jadiid- are they the new wahabis who re-intrepretted the old wahabi because they didnt want the saudi government should be disturbed or uprised against politically by the saudi people. here is where you got me lost. you use the words of sheikh bin baz aun and yet you fail to tell us that he worked hard to protect the royal saudi government and issued fatwas on their behalf

passed fatwas pro-the first gulf war against irak. gave the american and their coalition the green light to fight irak.
passed fatwas on americans stationed in saudi arabia.
passed fatwas regarding no uprising against the saudi royal family.
declared osama and hisi friends as murtads.

this ain't islam it is pure politics.
how many sub-sub-wahabi-salafi sects exist now?
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Re: Who are the Salafis?

Post by Koronto91 »

Musika,

Sh. Ibn Baaz was never Pro-Saudi Monarchy, maybe you are ignorant of his works. Ibn Baaz, Uthaymeen & Al-baani were all against the formation of the Salafi Jadiid sect during 1991. Other scholars objected and were arrested as a result of their disagreement.

Leave dead scholars alone.
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Re: Who are the Salafis?

Post by musika man »

[quote="Koronto91"]Musika,

Sh. Ibn Baaz was never Pro-Saudi Monarchy, maybe you are ignorant of his works. Ibn Baaz, Uthaymeen & Al-baani were all against the formation of the Salafi Jadiid sect during 1991. Other scholars objected and were arrested as a result of their disagreement.

Leave dead scholars alone.[/quote]

^^^

what do u mean 'leave dead scholars alone"?
sheikh bin baz aun was the mufti of saudi arabia? who nominated him for the post and what political masters was he serving? do u deny he issued fatwas on the saudi monarchy's behalf? the question is was he a wahabi/salafi jadiid or not? i'm not saying bad things about the sheikh but facts that he was the saudi mufti and strongly supported the saudi monarchy, his home country.
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