BBC Kismayo killed by Hutus

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Re: BBC Kismayo killed by Hutus

Post by FAH1223 »

Voltage wrote:

Awe this is what makes this whole schit frusterating. He was a very young man and one that I personally respected very much. I am very troubled by his assassination and just makes me despise that hell hole called Somalia even more.
whats frustrating is the question of how can you go back to somalia and make a difference....and when you do try to do something you love there and I guess make a name for yourself, you'll get killed

I don't understand these people they'll kill you for being a journalist, a doctor, an engineer, anything
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Re: BBC Kismayo killed by Hutus

Post by guhad122 »

Ilaahay ha u naxariisto Marxuumka; ehelkiisii iyo qaraaabadiisiina samir iyo iimaan haka siiyo....

Advo;
You remember how peaceful Kismaayo was when it was in the hands of the courts? Ethiopians and their puppets are playing these games on us....
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Re: BBC Kismayo killed by Hutus

Post by new-york23 »

AUN..inanka yar that was supporting his wife and kids. yanadi fardoosa allah ha ka waraabiyo.
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Re: BBC Kismayo killed by Hutus

Post by James Dahl »

I'm don't believe this is the work of islamists, only made to look that way. Either way I feel for his wife and family. AUN.
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Re: BBC Kismayo killed by Hutus

Post by Murax »

Voltage wrote:[Murax the more I try to delve intelligently into the reasons why south Somalia is the way it is the more I realize the sense of unity and solidarity that Somalilanders and Puntlanders really had to form in order to effectively resist the Siyaad Barre government played in their favor in the civil war.

These are people who were driven into the Bush and were really forced to organize and appreciate the effect of leadership and sense of governance in order to resist Siyaad. As soon as the civil war happened, their territories inherited the tradition of their resistance and were effectively saved from the destruction and doom of the south due to the absence of governance that puts emphasis on law and order.

The south on the other hand fell into anarchy and warlords rose up taking the mantle of control at the EXPENSE of the masses. The power vacuum that formed then still continues today and all the destruction and perversity we see today is a direct result of that.

May God punish the warlords and the legacy of destruction they wrought on our people.


Interesting observation.
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Re: BBC Kismayo killed by Hutus

Post by King-of-Awdal »

How the hell do you know who killed him? :lol: Zoomalis and their propganda. RIP.
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Re: BBC Kismayo killed by Hutus

Post by Somaliweyn »

Voltage wrote:
I would say Puntland is between Somaliland and the hell hole south of Baraxleey.

Murax the more I try to delve intelligently into the reasons why south Somalia is the way it is the more I realize the sense of unity and solidarity that Somalilanders and Puntlanders really had to form in order to effectively resist the Siyaad Barre government played in their favor in the civil war.

These are people who were driven into the Bush and were really forced to organize and appreciate the effect of leadership and sense of governance in order to resist Siyaad. As soon as the civil war happened, their territories inherited the tradition of their resistance and were effectively saved from the destruction and doom of the south due to the absence of governance that puts emphasis on law and order.

The south on the other hand fell into anarchy and warlords rose up taking the mantle of control at the EXPENSE of the masses. The power vacuum that formed then still continues today and all the destruction and perversity we see today is a direct result of that.

May God punish the warlords and the legacy of destruction they wrought on our people.

Correct observation.

If we drop the political correct terms like ''Somaliland, Puntland, and the South'' and analyze the situation using their true names we can see that your observation is correct and can be extented further.

For example, The south (what people say from Southern-Galkacio to the Southern border of Somalia) has Hawiye as the majority group. And because the struggle this group had to wage against the oppressive dictatorship was so short (1989-1991) the group in general was never subjected to real grievance from Galgacio to the southern corner. Nevertheless there was short grievance created (massacre of HG people in Central, harassing of Mudulood individuals/businesses in Mogadishu) which led to the rapid overthrow of the regime by the masses followed by the hastly organised rebel movement (USC) entering the city, which fell apart shortly due to no long experience in struggle and the leadership, commitment and unity such a bitter struggle can create.

But the real struggle for Hawiye groups started since 1991, and has entered its climax since 2006 with the Ethiopian occupation. For the first time in history, every Hawiye subclan is subjected to real grievance, in Mogadishu, Jowhar, Beledweyne, Afgoye, Merca, Bule Burte by seeing directly the Ethiopian occupation and its brutality. All witness the brutal Ethiopian occupation, and the massacre and exodus of people from Mogadishu only reinforces the shared grievance. Even such distanc places as Ceeldheere, Xarardheere, Hobyo, Cadaado, Galcaio, Guriceel were the Ethiopians have no visible presence the people are remembered of the brutality of Ethiopian occupation by hearing it from the news, or having families of them that fled Mogadishu and such places be their witnesses. The influx from people of Mogadishu etc into such distanc places is also remarkable which will only reinforce the shared grievance.

In the near future, this will only lead to unity and solidarity which will be the base for different modern Hawiye individuals to come together in order to create an effective political organisation which will take the leadership role over the whole group and wage a determined struggle against the anarchy and its ugly symptons: warlodism, opportunism, ''mooryanism'' and external interference.

---
As for your group Voltage,

We can say that your group witnessed a real grievance after 1991, after their removal from the capital city and South. Since then, the group has been subjected to internal conflicts (subclan vs subclan) and external conflicts (clan vs clan, clan vs ethio's clan vs alitixad etc), which ofcourse will create the needed unity and firm organisation for the group.

From there on, there are two options open for the group:

- Work with the other Somali groups in Southern Somalia by finding a new identity which allows you to cooperate and peacefully coexist with the Somali groups in Southern Somalia (particularly with Hawiye group). In this a new Somalia can be put on the map.

or

-Resurrect the old dictatorship and nostalgy, while squandering the hard created unity and leadership organisation in the chasing of resurrecting this old time. Ofcourse this path will bring you in direct conflict with every single Somali group in the South, and even those in Northeast and Northwest of Somalia.

Thats my extension of your observation into the most likely scenario for the future political map of Somalia.
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Re: BBC Kismayo killed by Hutus

Post by Voltage »

Somaliweyn your analysis requires me to delve more intimately then I can afford at this exact time but I will say I agree witht he skeleton of your analysis and your overall description of the situation.

However this is where we differ (and I will make sure to explain myself in detail later tomorrow)..the thing is I do not believe Hawiye is the unitary group you make it out to be. Despite there is this popular onslought against Majeerteen as being seen as the face of the TFG but in my experience and I daresay the experience in general is that the most hardcore supporters of the TFG are Hawiye and the most hardcore opposition of the TFG are Hawiye.

Nothing signifies that more than Gacmadheere, a Saleebaan, representing the TFG to the opposition "Odayaasha Hawiye" led by Axmed Diiriye, another Saleebaan! Or Axmed Cabdisalaan, a Cayr, now traveling with Abdullahi Yusuf to represent the TFG while opposing the Asmara-based wing of the Alliance led by Hassan Dahir Aweys and Indhacade, both Cayr! Or Nuur Cade representing the TFG to Asmara facing opposite of the Djbouti-based wing of the Alliance led by Sheikh Sharif SHeikh Ahmed, an Abgaal!

Nowhere in the make-up of even of Somalia's perverse clan oriented affairs is such confusion, disunity, and very apparent
discord apparent in a singular entity and even its seperate wings then the Hawiye as a people.

Everyday you will read the Al Shabaab Abgaal section took over Jowhar or Balcad killing a dozen or so Abgaal TFG troops only to leave and come back next week doing the same thing.

I am afraid Hawiye is not close to what you make it out to be and in my final analysis I cannot help but disagree with you and stick to the point that that clan, out of all of Somalia's groupings, will continue to be the source of problematic anti-state initiatives which we can all agree will continue to bode significantly on the over-all lack of Somali statehood because this clan occupies major part of the national capital and surrounding countryside!

Mareexaan is different in this regard. This clan as you rightfully pointed out when through significant stages to get to their point and I think in all fairness they are now a few steps behind the ladder of organization and effective governance that Somaliland and Puntland enjoy because the Mareexaan have really had to organize and come to appreciate the benefits of law and order in order to move beyond the situation they found themselves in most of the 90's and early twenty first century.

Gedo certainly has proven this case right. How else could these pictures have come out of it?

Gubarnatorial Elections in Gedo, first democratic vote in all of Somalia excluding Somaliland and Puntland for the last 20 years
Image
Image

Baardheere District elections

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Regional Legislative Body being set up in state capital Garbahareey

Image
Image
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However, culture might also have something to do with this. Though I had before included all south of Baraxleey into one corner, still there are grades within that camp and I do not believe i am being biased when I say even in the thickest of the civil war, Mareexaan as a clan was above the Hawiye in the aspects graded upon and respected for in the North simply because of the cultural difference were Mareexaan, like the northern counter-parts in Somaliland and Puntland have strong Guurti or odayaal presence and Hawiye unfortunately does not. Guurti is in itself a significant part of Somali governance and this is something that seems to have escaped Hawiye until recently although the Hawiye Guurti still is a tituler, singler subject and not a an entity based in alliance with other key decision-makers such as business people, militia leaders, etc.

Even in the thickest parts of the civil war, objective Western analysts were writing.
3.11. Gedo region
In the Gedo region, clan elders enjoy greater respect and authority than in many other parts of
southern Somalia.
Hence, politically speaking, there is a relatively well-run administration at
district level. The region's local authorities thus cooperate closely with local clan elders, business
people and the SNF. All districts have district councils, most of them appointed by the SNF. Some
districts have also, with the assistance of the UN Somalia Rehabilitation Project (UNOPS), set up
development management groups (DMGs) to help run local development projects

According to Ken Menkhaus, there can found, in some of the region's districts, commitment and
authority comparable to those met with in north-eastern and north-western Somalia.


4.2.3. Marehan clans' ugaas
Kenneth Menkhaus explained that Ugaas Omar Ugaas Hirsi represented all Marehan subclans and
was unchallenged by any clan factions within the Marehan clan. He described the role of the ugaas
in the reconciliation process as "crucial". The ugaas was a kind of king of the Marehan clans in the
Gedo region, enjoying the utmost authority among Gedo's Marehan clans.
Barry Sesnan, Area Manager (Gedo region) for the UNOPS/SRP, reported that the ugaas was
indisputably an authority, adding nevertheless that young Marehan in particular often doubted his
intellectual capacity as well as questioning the guidance given him. Despite this, non-one denied
his authority and everyone responded to a summons from the ugaas.
This was confirmed by the District Commissioner of Luuq, Mohamed Mohamud Aden, who added
that he was backed up by the chiefs, described as "peace lords", leading the Marehan subclans."

"4.2.4. Political leadership
Overall political leadership of the Gedo region is exercised by the SNF Central Committee, which
has set up an Executive Committee, also known as the Standing Committee, for that purpose. Its
leadership embraces the Marehan-dominated part of the Galgaduud region in eastern Somalia as
well.
The SNF, according to Mohamed Mohamud Aden, was a Marehan-based political front. However,
both Andrew Fitzgibbon and Abdishakur Othowai pointed out that non-Marehan clans could also
join the SNF, which was considered fully in control of the Gedo region. The SNF's top body was
its Congress, headed by the SNF's Chairman, Omar Hagi, with the Chairman and Deputy Chairman
of the SNF being appointed by its Congress.""
Still, south of Baraxleey whether in Gedo or Xamar or Bay or Hiiraan or Shabelleda Dhexe have had the same collective experience and one that we both agree is the result of a power-vacuum that formed after the Siyaad government in which there was not a collective hardship that either of the groups could really look back to that would have made them see above their differences and organize into an affective socio-politico group(s).
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Re: BBC Kismayo killed by Hutus

Post by The_Patriot »

[quote="GENERAL_SNM"]hoyadi wassahan faqash killa naga ah maxa haya? Is he being provokative, or for real?.Every post is pro ethiopian and anti muslim.War abaha ma rasta ba?[/quote]
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: BBC Kismayo killed by Hutus

Post by The_Patriot »

I bet that guy was killed by another Ilkoyar.
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Re: BBC Kismayo killed by Hutus

Post by Somaliweyn »

Voltage,

Your counter-analysis is based on two assumptions:


1) Hawiye subclans are ridden by contradictions. There is confusion and disunity when one looks at the ''political visible'' men, where you have the situation that two individuals represent two opposite political sides while they hail from one subclan.

vs

My group is united in political outlook

2) Hawiye subclans do not have the ''culture'' (the primitive pastoral culture to be precise) which can facilitate the forming of governance structures.

vs

My group has the pastoral culture which has facilitated the creation of Gedo governance structures.

-----

To adress your first assumption.

You are right about the obvious contradictions that even outsiders can notice. But your conclusion is incorrect. Exactly these so obvious contradictions and disunity will encourage the different strata of Hawiye to rethink and repriotize their interest. Exactly these contradictions and disunity amid shared grievance and problems will lead people to say: ''Hold up, whats happening around us, why are we suffering and yet so disunited with individuals representing both camps which caused this suffering''. This is happening nowadays in every Hawiye circles, to every place you go and you come across Hawiye individuals talking you will notice this ''paradigm shift'' from discussions first framed around: ''your group did this, my subgroup was correct, this is your fault, you should let me do this and that'' to nowadays discussions framed around: ''we have lived in mess since 1991, we have to search for solutions, we are targeted equally, people see us as one group''.

In Somalinet, you could see this when two diametrically opposed individuals (AW and Twisted Logic) could come together and agree on many things. :up: This is just one glimpse of whats happening out there in real life.

And as for your group, the only thing they agreed on was to hold on to Kismaanyo, but even in this internal powerstruggles have surfaced lately. And in the wider Somali political landscape, your people are divided equally between Resistance and Occupation supporters.


As for your second assumption,

First I am not fond of primitive pastoral culture and its socio-political institutions. It is exactly this pastoral way of life and its impact on our culture, society and politics why we have lagged behind in progress. But nontheless, to adress your point I will take individual subclans of Hawiye to compare it to your ''traditional elders'' which seem to enjoy respect and legitimacy within your group. When we look to Ceyr, we can see that the ugaas/suldaan structures are respected by the group as even Cayrow could not rise up against this primite political structure and as such was ''sold out''. When we look to the pastoral institutions of Xawaadle or Abgaal we can see that their traditional men are respected and enjoy legitimacy.

So it is not lack of primitive pastoral culture as such, but it is their extended and weakened existence in modern world which results in the situation were people expect primitive pastoral socio-political structures to solve modern problems. This is exactly what happened in Mogadishu, were men like M.dheere could become more prominent then the well-respected and well-known Imaam of Mudulood. Where men like Dabageed can govern region (albeit with Ethio support) while the well-respected Ugaas of Xawaadle is limited to traditional tasks. How? Because these men understood the environment in which they were (anarchy) and thus took advantage, hence why the ''ugly'' have become prominent in this ''ugly'' environment.

As for the North and their succes in letting primitive pastoral structures facilitate the build-up of governance structures. I believe that the primitive pastoral structures were instrumental but not THE factor behind the organisation of local governance structures. There were various factors, like the relatively long struggle which created some level of unity and solidarity (which exists only when it becomes ''us'' vs ''them''...but when ''them'' dissapears you'll see internal powerstruggles) and eventually they succeeded in creating a political goal to work towards. In Northwest it was: ''the regime/Somalia did this to us, now we want to be independent---> thus creation of own ''nation-state''. In Northeast it was: ''the regime fell, every group went back to its region or fights for the spoils of state collapse, were else should we go then our ancestral regions and build up some institutions there to cope with the harsh life?''.....The same has happened now for the various Hawiye groups who have come to the conclusion that Mogadishu is too turbulent to invest all your eggs in. Hence the Galmudug initiative, the Ceeldheer build-up and the Benadir maamul initiatives which surface in discussions.

As for your group, they too were busy contesting for the spoils of state collapse after survival was secured and even to this day your group is preoccupied with one of such spoils (Kismaanyo) instead of focusing on local governance structures in your ancestral regions. The Gedo initiative is somehow late, as there are similar initiatives going on within Somali groups in South Somalia i.e Galmudug initiative, the recent Bakool administration etc.
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Re: BBC Kismayo killed by Hutus

Post by Somali_4Life »

Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un
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Re: BBC Kismayo killed by Hutus

Post by GENERAL_SNM »

No point in writing essays of excuses, the bottom line is you both need to raise your game,some more then other's.
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Re: BBC Kismayo killed by Hutus

Post by snowflakes821 »

Now can you guys leave Somaliland alone? Seriously, i'm tired of you guys hating on the only shining light of these past 20 years. An independendent Somaliland is good for the hell hole Somalia. Maybe then the Hutus could finally get it together.
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Re: BBC Kismayo killed by Hutus

Post by FAH1223 »

Voltage wrote:
Murax wrote:Voltage,

The sad thing is its not Somalia thats a hellhole. I know people that go to Hargeisa, Borame, Bossaso, Galkacyo etc. every summer. The problem is anything south of Baraxley.
I would say Puntland is between Somaliland and the hell hole south of Baraxleey.

Murax the more I try to delve intelligently into the reasons why south Somalia is the way it is the more I realize the sense of unity and solidarity that Somalilanders and Puntlanders really had to form in order to effectively resist the Siyaad Barre government played in their favor in the civil war.

These are people who were driven into the Bush and were really forced to organize and appreciate the effect of leadership and sense of governance in order to resist Siyaad. As soon as the civil war happened, their territories inherited the tradition of their resistance and were effectively saved from the destruction and doom of the south due to the absence of governance that puts emphasis on law and order.

The south on the other hand fell into anarchy and warlords rose up taking the mantle of control at the EXPENSE of the masses. The power vacuum that formed then still continues today and all the destruction and perversity we see today is a direct result of that.

May God punish the warlords and the legacy of destruction they wrought on our people.
Exactly. Thats pretty much it, I even asked my dad why the hell is everything south of the Puntland in constant change, turnover, and power vacuums....and what you said is pretty much what he said.
snowflakes821 wrote:Now can you guys leave Somaliland alone? Seriously, i'm tired of you guys hating on the only shining light of these past 20 years. An independendent Somaliland is good for the hell hole Somalia. Maybe then the Hutus could finally get it together.
Somaliland has been independent since 1991. I don't know who is touching Somaliland except the Somaliland clans and the refugees from the conflict who came up and the diaspora communities who go every summer.

Same thing applies with Puntland.

I'm starting to see why I never have been sent to Somalia, even though my parents have laid many empty threats of "you're going to Somalia if you don't behave" throughout my childhood. :lol:
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