Sufis- Limits to Worship?

[Padishah]

A lot of these sufi's are funded by western governments. Check out that video.

Would you care to qualify this a lot remark?

[suga_n_spice]

subxanallah. they look like they're dancin

[Shirib]

subxanallah. they look like they're dancin

It looks fun

[suga_n_spice]

shirib. this is no laughin matter. it's deep

[The_Emperior5]

shirib. this is no laughin matter. it's deep

there is nothing wrong with doing hadra like these People where doing
its alowed n islam

[suga_n_spice]

^^^

[RebelLion]

A lot of these sufi's are funded by western governments. Check out that video.

Would you care to qualify this a lot remark?

Not all sufi's but some, I think there is a sufi political organization in the UK that is funded by washington and britain, Muslim sufi council. Some also in the states, the islamic supreme council of america being one.

They represent what the west wants muslims to be, and cause divisions among muslims.

Takfiri and other sects are also a problem.

Here's a link that goes into more detail.

http://sufimuslimcouncil.blogspot.com/

[Advo]

Yungfresh and Murax, there's absolutely nothing wrong with Sufism, I mean where can I "lean wid it", "snap my fingers", and "break dance" outside the club and claim to do it for allah? well it's the sufi circle mayn, again, there's nothing wrong with the following video.

[salafi_student]

^^^^

That is not Islam

[Advo]

Istaqfurullah bro, U salafis are khawarij; with that said.....I'd rather get my c-walk, hip hop dancing on whilest getting ajar, instead of reading the quran, xadith, doing real STUFF that gets one ajar, we suffis like to go around the system, so dont bother us mayn.

[Mr. Yungnfresh]

Mr Yungnfresh,

The question is not about customizing worship as you see fit, especially in worship that already has a fixed form. Everything has limits, including dhikr. One cannot commit sin in the pursuit of worship, and expect to be rewarded. The issue is about there being particular limits on the form, frequency and manner of dhikr. There has been no specification for remembrance of Allah, whether it be in the style of remembrance, the manner of remembrance and the frequency with which one engages in remembrance.

So to answer your question, yes, 'Sufi's' do not consider it correct to decide how one wishes to pray, or go about his ablutions, or in any matter of worship where form, frequency and manner have already been fixed.

As for the issue of ablutions, I'm told that as long as one meets the minimum requirements, and you do not invalidate it, then it remains valid.

i dont see a difference because both are extra amounts of dhikr, and no dhikr is greater than salaat...if the argument is "Muhammad SAW specified the procedure for salaat and that's why we pray according to his teachings" then it should be consistent and we should follow what he taught and abandon what he didn't teach instead of cherry-picking what parts of his Sunnah we follow and what parts we decide to "upgrade"...cuz at the end of the day, if anyone does anything in dhikr that Rasuulullah SAW didn't do, then it's either they're doing something better than him or doing something worse than him since he never did that same thing. You're right tho, one cannot commit sin in the pursuit of worship, and that's exactly what this innovation is....a sin. Sufyaan ibn 'Uyaynah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said "Bid'ah (innovation) is dearer to Iblees (Satan) than sin, because a person may repent from sin, but not from innovation." . There's nothing wrong with doing as much dhikr as u want as long as it's in accordance with the teachings of Muhammad SAW and that's what the argument is essentially about.

As for Wudu, it's only valid if the repetitions are done 3 times

"Amr bin Shuaib, quoting his father on the authority of his grand-father narrated that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said, 'If anyone performs actions of ablution more than 3 times, he has done wrong, transgressed, and done wickedly'."
(recorded by Nasai and Ibn Majah)

[Mr. Yungnfresh]

Yungfresh Murax and the rest of the Salafi crew..

Why do you want to create fitnah? i thought the countless ayaats and ahadiis we posted was enough ..Allah s.w.t said remember me MUCH.

what part of this dont you Salafis get..that you have to open another thread? Wallahi maskaxdiinu way qafulsantahay

Murax thanks for that hadeeth..its dealing with a totally different matter..i.e religious addiction...something akin to monasticism which Islam is against.Allah s.w.t commands us to follow a 'middle path'.

However that doesnt change the fact that Allah s.w.t told us to 'remember him much' 'standing, sitting, and lying on our sides'..everything in balance.

LoL so im a Salafi now? I had no idea...i guess i've just been Enlightened, Sista.

I was wondering why a reasonable guy like Murax was talkin to u like jahiliyad oo edab daran ee wax u dan leh in the past, i guess it's cuz u kuu fiirsaday and waxaa tahay jahiliyad oo edab daran ee wax u dan leh....i can understand if u said "no, this is why i feel what i'm doing is correct and this is how i feel it can be supported Islamically" lakiin waxaaba la soo booday "why are u creating fitnah! u Salafied Salafis! what point don't u get u piece of Salafs!" bax naga soco, i now see why people label u the way they do...u obviously don't have anything authentic that's Islamically intellectual to reference (to the point that u even go so far as to doubt if authentic information is really authentic according to the 'Enlightened Sista seal of approval') so u hate it that the hypocrisy in ur actions are being exposed.

speaking of hypocrisy : Subject: DHIKR IS THE GREATEST OBLIGATION

as for who are the Salafis..well....this is purely based on my experiences..(< make a note of this please)

I have found them to be generally speaking ...people who like to impose their beliefs on people..and if they refuse..they condemn them to a miserable life in jahannum. Basically this is their line of thinking 'We alone are the 'saved sect' and all else naught but error...our way or the highway.

Why do you want to create fitnah? i thought the countless ayaats and ahadiis we posted was enough ..Allah s.w.t said remember me MUCH.

what part of this dont you Salafis get..that you have to open another thread? Wallahi maskaxdiinu way qafulsantahay

u smell that?

[Mr. Yungnfresh]

Let us think about the report narrated from 'Abd-Allaah ibn Mas'ood by al-Daarimi in his Sunan (Narrated by al-Daarimi, 1/68; al-Albaani said in al-Silsilah al-Saheehah (5/12): its isnaad is saheeh), according to which Abu Moosa al-Ash'ari said to 'Abd-Allaah ibn Mas'ood: "O Abu 'Abd al-Rahmaan, I have just seen in the mosque something new that I was not sure about, but I think I have not seen anything but something good, praise be to Allaah." He said, "What was it?"

He said, "You will see it tomorrow." He said, "I saw some people in the mosque sitting in circles waiting for the prayer. In every circle there was a man and in their hands were pebbles. He would say, 'Say Allaahu akbar one hundred times,' so they would say Allaahu akbar (takbeer) one hundred times. Then he would say, 'Say Laa ilaaha ill-Allaah (tahleel) one hundred times, so they would say Laa ilaaha ill-Allaah one hundred times. Then he would say, 'Say Subhaan Allaah (tasbeeh) one hundred times,' and they would say Subhaan Allaah one hundred times."

He said, "What did you say to them?"

He said, "I did not say anything to them. I was waiting for your opinion."

He said, "Why did you not tell them to count their bad deeds and promise them that none of their good deeds would be lost?' Then he went away and we went with him, until he came to one of those circles. He stood over them and said, "What is this that I see you doing?"

They said, "O Abu 'Abd al-Rahmaan, these are pebbles with which we count the takbeer, tahleel and tasbeeh."

He said, "Count your bad deeds, for I promise you that nothing of your good deeds will be lost. Woe to you, O ummah of Muhammad, how soon you have drifted into the way of doom even though the companions of your Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) are still alive amongst you, and his garments and the vessels he used are still not worn out or broken. By the One in Whose hand is my soul, either you are following a way that is more guided than the way of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), or you are starting a way that is the way of misguidance."

They said, "By Allaah, O Abu 'Abd al-Rahmaan, we did not intend anything but good."

He said, "How many of those who intend good never attain it. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told us... [and he mentioned the hadeeth]... By Allaah, perhaps most of you are among them."

Then he turned away from them, and 'Amr ibn Salamah said: Then we saw most of the people in those circles fighting us on the day of al-Nahrawaan with the Khaarijis.

This denunciation by Ibn Mas'ood (may Allaah be pleased with him) puts an end to the argument presented by innovators, because they always say, "What reason can there be not to recite dhikr, prayers and Qur'aan? We only intend good and to draw closer to Allaah."

It should be said to them: Worship must be something that is prescribed in sharee'ah in essence and in its form and the manner in which it is done. If a specific number is prescribed in sharee'ah then no one has the right to go beyond that, and if no number or way is specified then no one has the right to invent a limit for it, because that implies that one is assuming the role of a lawgiver.

Imam Maalik (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: Whoever introduces any innovation into Islam claiming that it is good is implying that Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) betrayed the message entrusted to him, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

"This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion"

[al-Maa'idah 5:3]

[Padishah]

i dont see a difference because both are extra amounts of dhikr, and no dhikr is greater than salaat...

You do not see a difference between Prayer and Remembrance (dhikr)? None at all. The form of Prayer, the frequency one prays doing the day, and the manner in which one prays have all been fixed by the Prophet (PBUH). Is there an equivalent specification for Remembrance? Did the Prophet (PBUH) tell us a specific manner of remembrance, whether its silent or loud, what things so say and when? He did not. Remembrance is free form; the choice in the form, frequency and remembrance left up to the person to decide, as long as no Haram is not involved.

if the argument is "Muhammad SAW specified the procedure for salaat and that's why we pray according to his teachings" then it should be consistent and we should follow what he taught and abandon what he didn't teach instead of cherry-picking what parts of his Sunnah we follow and what parts we decide to "upgrade".

You seem to be having comprehension problems. We agree on this point; where the Prophet (PBUH) has specified how we conduct ourselves in a particular worship, then it is obligatory to do so, otherwise you are involved in blameworthy Innovation. What you seem to be confused about is whether there is a limit, or specification to the practice of dhikr. Take note of the following:

The following quote I took from the book "Fiqh us-Sunnah" by as-Sayyid Sabiq.

Ali b. Abi Talha relates that Ibn Abbas said, "All obligations imposed upon man by Allah are clearly marked and one is exempted from them in the presence of a genuine cause. The only exception is the obligation of dhikr. Allah has set no specific limits for it, and under no circumstances is one allowed to be negligent of it. We are commanded to `remember Allah standing, sitting, and reclining on your sides,' [Qur'an 3:191] in the morning, during the day, at sea or on land, on journey or at home, in poverty and in prosperity, in sickness or in health, openly and secretly, and, in fact, at all times throughout one's life and in all circumstances."

Now, do you understand that there is a difference between Prayer and Remembrance? Do you also understand that Remembrance is free form, the only limit being that one avoids the Impermissible?

cuz at the end of the day, if anyone does anything in dhikr that Rasuulullah SAW didn't do, then it's either they're doing something better than him or doing something worse than him since he never did that same thing.

We have many things in the religion that the Prophet (PBUH) did not do. The Prophet (PBUH) did not teach us the Principles of Jurisprudence (Usul al Fiqh), nor did he engage in collecting and sorting Hadith, nor did he grade and catergorise those Hadith's. Have those Scholars who have engaged in Jurisprudence, or Hadith collection and grading, done something better than the Prophet (PBUH), or were these things something worse, and hence, unnecessary?

You're right tho, one cannot commit sin in the pursuit of worship, and that's exactly what this innovation is....a sin. Sufyaan ibn 'Uyaynah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said "Bid'ah (innovation) is dearer to Iblees (Satan) than sin, because a person may repent from sin, but not from innovation." .

For Innovation to occur, Mr Yungnfresh, there has to be an already established method with you can change, add to or take away from in order to bring Innovation into it. Is there an established, fixed method of performing Remembrance, or has it been left to the believers the form, frequency and manner of Remembrance?

There's nothing wrong with doing as much dhikr as u want as long as it's in accordance with the teachings of Muhammad SAW and that's what the argument is essentially about.

We are in agreement. There is nothing wrong with doing as much Remembrance, in any manner that does not involved Haram, that is in accordance with the teachings of the Prophet (PBUH).

[Enlightened~Sista]

A lot of these sufi's are funded by western governments. Check out that video.

Would you care to qualify this a lot remark?

Not all sufi's but some, I think there is a sufi political organization in the UK that is funded by washington and britain, Muslim sufi council. Some also in the states, the islamic supreme council of america being one.

They represent what the west wants muslims to be, and cause divisions among muslims.

Takfiri and other sects are also a problem.

Here's a link that goes into more detail.

http://sufimuslimcouncil.blogspot.com/

RebelLion is correct 100%..theres something treacherous about the Naqshabandi Haqqani leadership..many of its members are naive and in the dark ..May Allah s.w.t guide them. Even other Naqshabandi orders are opposed to the Haqqanis. I met a Jamaican brother who belonged to them..basicaly waxan ku idhi 'iska jir'



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Advo..you just cant post a random video and say that it is representative of all Sufis.



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Yungnfresh..maybe u need to re discover the menaing of ''hypocrisy''..Someone asked me 'Who are the Salafis' and i responded..i spoke of the Salafis i came across..ones i dealt with.


hypocrisy however is abundant here..whats worse is..people who go clubbing , people who admitted to watching porn,(these people are in this very thread!) think they are the ones going to Jannah and all the others who btw are not engaged in this sort of behaviour..are 'deviants' and are all destined for hell..for believing in the virtues of 'too much dhikr' ..kawarran!