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You illustrated the Hawiye outcome of such events occurring, and future actions that should be taken by the Hawiye masses so as to not fall into these kind of predicament once again. YOU linked the question with "Hawiyedom," not I, nor was it a setup by me, my analysis was not based on nothing but your last post, how did I showcase preconceived conclusions about you?
I have stressed in this topic that I fully understand your general examination of the Somali political situation.
You do not fully comprehend my examination of the Somali political situation. There was a reason why I started with this general examination, then proceeded to the dualism between clannism and nationalism, then went ahead to SYL-mistake of closing eyes,ears,mouths from issues relating to clan.
The reason why I put ''Hawiye'' into my mouth and did not shy away from incorporating that into my analysis is not because I believe more in ''Hawiydom (which is quite an ignorant sentence since Hawiye is part of the Somali nation and faces the same problems and shame other Somalis face vis-a-vis other nations) but because I acknowldge what i called in my first post ''the setting on the ground''. And also as said in that post '' the question which should be answered is how one can take this reality in consideration yet remain nationalistic.''
Hawiye played its unique role in this current predicament Somalia is in today. Even the current shamefull Ethiopian occupation is party the cause of actions which Hawiye men took since 1991 to anno now.
Ofcourse I can take other Somali groups as examples in my analysis, like Isaaq, Daarod etc. But who am I to tell others what they did wrong and what they should correct? Shouldn't I first start with my own background before telling others what to do? Wouldn't people who hail from those groups point me to my own affaires when I take their mistakes as an example in my analysis? This is especially the case in this era in which every group is paranoid about others pointing them to something they did wrong, criticism is easily interpreted as an ''external assualt on the group'' hence why I believe one should start with self-criticism and give an example to others.
So, I want to know if you had the chance to sort everything out how would you solve Somalia's problem and the different factions who wish to govern the populace. Lets say the Ethiopians left, what do you wish to happen next politically/socially? Who do you wish to govern? ?[/quote]
Somalia can ONLY unite under the banner of ISLAM. Be it Wahabbism or mild Wahabism. That is the ONLY thing they have in common. I suggest a religious parliament be formed with religion being the focal point of reference as a LAW. That will bring unity and illiminate division. Otherwise- suuro, ego and -- inaa hebel will rule the chaos craziness of Somalia. That is why i was a mojor supporter of the USC clan wadaads. They truly had a shot to have had a disciplined, moral Islimic Somalia.
Somaliweyn wrote:I believe that no Somali group or person would disagree with the notion that every village/town/city/region in Somalia should have in place representative governing structures that facilitate collective decision-making in these places.
The whole Somali problem was that we never experienced the development of genuine governing structures and administration. Ofcourse we had tribal political structures like chieftancy, council of elders etc but these were ment to solve problems with neighbouring clans or internal clan issues and were thus more socially-oriented then towards the development of a state or other kind of regional administration.
The only period Somalis witnessed some level of living under a central administration was 1960-1990. And even in this era, the system of governance was only at the centre (major cities like Mogadishu, hargeise etc). Mogadishu was the seat of the government, and centre of the land. The city/regional governing structures were nothing more then satelittes around the central government in Mogadishu.
When the central government was destroyed, and the centre (Mogadishu) was destroyed most Somali people had no other option then to flee to abroad, since the periphery (village's, towns, distant regions) were neglected severly by the previous governments.
What we have learned from this 18 years of statelessness is that we should first focus on building the periphery, i.e buidling local governing structures for villages, towns, cities and regions which then can adress the needs of the people living in those places. After these local governing structures succeed in adressing the basic needs of the people living in villages/towns/cities/regions can people be attracted to actually spread themselves around those places instead of been concentrated in large city-centre's just because these places have some level of administration and offer opportunities for making a living.
Another major lesson which we have learned is that we should have collective decision-making mechanisms in place. This lesson and the previous one have become the most visible to the people in Mogadishu. Why?
Simple, they all came from distant regions like Hiiraan, Mudug, Galgaduud, Middle Shabelle, Lower Shabelle, Bay/Bakool etc and flocked into Mogadishu when the central government was destroyed. They came with the promise of a better life. What has happened since then? The decision-making fell in the hands of a few men, who during the coarse of the 18 years turned out to be nothing more then opportunists, warlords, traitors and plain criminals. These individuals failed to translate the hopes and wishes of the people into reality, and prolonged the anarchy and civil war. Fast foward it to 2007, Ethiopians (TPLF who entered Addis Abebba in May 1991, while USC entered Mogadishu in Jan 1991) came into Somalia, occupied major places and drove 1 million people from Mogadishu. You should try to understand the sheer effect this has on the people that have experienced this ugly turn of events.
These 1 million that fled the city went back to their villages/towns/cities/regions just to find out that there is nothing there that can sustain the same level of living as in Mogadishu, which to be honest was already low. The 18 years people were in Mogadishu ment 18 years of neglect of these villages/towns/cities and regions, and the 18 years of focus on building central government ment 18 years of neglect of building local governing structures.
What has become more clear is that we should never again put the decision-making in the hands of a few men. This lesson should have been learned since 1960, and more so during the 1969-1991. But apparently people didn;t, and had to experience another period of hard life as a consequence of the desastrous effect of placing the decision-making in the hands of a few men.
So these two notion of (local/regional/national) representative governing structures and collective decision-making are important and interrelated.
The question is how do these two notions answer your question concerning who should govern the populace, what faction, and what the role of Islamic movement should be in Somalia, and more importantly how can Somali people unite?
Hint: Look no further then the countries we know the best and have lived most of our life. Do not those countries have representative governing structures and collective decision-making in place? Also, look more into them when it comes to judiciary system vis-a-vis central/federal government.
So, I want to know if you had the chance to sort everything out how would you solve Somalia's problem and the different factions who wish to govern the populace. Lets say the Ethiopians left, what do you wish to happen next politically/socially? Who do you wish to govern? ?
Somalia can ONLY unite under the banner of ISLAM. Be it Wahabbism or mild Wahabism. That is the ONLY thing they have in common. I suggest a religious parliament be formed with religion being the focal point of reference as a LAW. That will bring unity and illiminate division. Otherwise- suuro, ego and -- inaa hebel will rule the chaos craziness of Somalia. That is why i was a mojor supporter of the USC clan wadaads. They truly had a shot to have had a disciplined, moral Islimic Somalia.
Basra the voice of wisdom. Now why did ignorant people go around insulting this voice of wisdom?
Somaliweyn, maybe you did not comprehend my question fully, I am not asking you about the ideal governance and systems the Somali people or even sub-groups should adopt, maybe this is our confusion--- why I see many of your rhetoric great, but useless in this topic--- I am asking you about the present, what outcome would you like to happen, or are most likely to happen to the Somali people if the ousting of the Ethiopians happen and the TFG is dismantled?
"Who do you wish to govern? What and how can the Somali populace unite? What is your outlook on this "Islamic" movement and what role do you think they should play? Try to be less broad and a little bit more specific, all you utter on this site is "xabashi and their followers," is the eviction of xabashi's from Somalia your only answer to everything?"
My questions are all current related. If you answer them in a present tense instead of an ideal future framework, we understand each other better.
I am sorry to dissapoint you my friend, but Somalia's problem is not something which is easy and can be spilled out just like that. If you thought this was the case, then try somewhere else.
Try to comprehend the things I wrote, and see how they are linked and can answer your own questions. With a little bit effort and sincereness, you will make it far.
Somaliweyn wrote:Now the question is how can the different Somali groups come to terms?
Simple, most villages/towns and regions have clear link to particular groups. So it is obvious for every group to preoccupy themselves with the question of how to organize local governing insitutionts for their lands. This process already started in Northern Somalia, but both models have turned out to be reactionary. The Northwest model is straightforward anti-Somalia with its secessionist agenda. The Northeast model broke down as it became evident that particular indivuals only nurtured it in order to use it as a launching-base for the attainment of central power. Also, the principles of the men that were behind the creation of this model is straightforward anti-Somalia since these men had no problem to use Ethiopia for their petty clannish interest. So as is clear, both models are not workable in creating a strong Somalia.
What we need is for genuine local governing structures in most villages/towns/cities/regions in which the people of those places are enabled to elect the kind of administration they want. This is possible for even highly contested cities/regions like Kismaanyo/Lower Jubba, Mogadishu/Benadir etc. Once the people succeed into building a system in which the citizens of those places can express their wishes and elect the kind of administration they want, you will see that diverse Somali groups can coexist in cities/regions. Also, the stress on representative local governing structures is related to the stress on collective decision-making. The people in village's/towns/cities/regions should be able to express what they want, instead of a few individuals (opportunists who call themselves ''representatives''/faction leaders) interwining their personal ambitions with the interest of the people. Once people are enabled to express what they want, and this results into the establishment of administration the people have elected, can we speak of collective decision-making since the people themselves elected the administration collectively. From here on, its a matter of designing and implementing a system of balances and check.
Now the question which faction should govern the populace?
For local/regional case, this is simple: namely those the people have elected in villages/towns/cities etc. For the national case, we first need a period of transition in which every group and every region have in place some sort of functioning local governing structures. After these different groups succeed in that, and through elections appoint representatives, can the different representatives of the different groups come together and search for common ground to work on. The goal to work to would be to devise a system in which whoever wants to lead Somalia should go through a process of elections, first elected by the city/region the one lives, then by the national party he is member of, then contest with others for the presidency. But this system should have clear checks and balances.
The other question, the role of the Islamic movement in this desired development path for Somalia.
The question of the role of the Islamic movement in this desired development path for Somalia is really pressing as it has become clear that what we have is nothing but a genuine movement tested by the countless measures external actors took in order to defeat it, which they have been unable to do. This Islamic movement has put its mark on Somalia's political landscape, and is something which will not just dissapear. Now how to accomodate this Islamic movement into the previously scetch of desired development path for Somalia?
To answer this we first need to understand what this Islamic movement is, how they operate, and what men propagating this movement want.
This Islamic movement is really a response to the hardships Somalis face as a consequence of the drastic change that occured since 1991 and which Somalis have been unable to adress. They are one of the many countless factions fighting for political power. What makes them different is that their ideology is based on ruling/governing Somalia with Islamic law, while most other factions are clan-factions who want to bring back Somalia but with their own clan in the ruling seat. On the other hand, this phenomenom of Islamic men coming to the front in the political field and fighting for a cause is not something new. From the days of the 15th century conquest of Abbysinia, to the resistance put up against the colonial penetration, to now. In all these different periods, religious men were on the forefront to propagate their ideology to tackle certain problems. And suprisingly the problems in the three different periods are somehow the same: drastic change which causes dramatic chaos/recurring conflict and opens the window for external agression.
Now how does the religous movement operate? Surprisingly, the leaders of this movement have understood how our society is structured, namely ''the setting on the ground'' an have devised a way to overcome the dualism of clan and nation. This fact is most visible in the fragmented structure the Islamic movement has. For example, in Hiiraan you have men that are part of the Islamic movement but confine themselves to the region of Hiiraan because those men hail from that region. The same for Middle Shabelle, in which representatives of the Islamic movement which hail from that region control and govern the region. In Bay/Bakool, Lower Jubba, Middle Jubba, Gedo etc etc we have men been part of the Islamic movement but also been part of the different groups that inhabit those regions. So within every Somali group, you will find men that are part of the Islamic movement. Now this is a practical solution to the clan-division and animosity/mistrust against each other that is widespread in Somalia, but incorporating the ''current setting on the ground'' has also its downturn. For example, since the different clan-factions fight for political power with their clan in the ruling seat how can we be sure that these clan-factions will not intertwine themselves with the Islamic movement in order to fight for the same old goal (political power with the own clan in the ruling seat) but within the Islamic movement? This is a real suspicion that many Somalis have against the Islamic movement, namely that a particular clan will dominate this movement by manoeuvring itself in that position and will then dominate the other clans under the cover of ''Islamic movement''. This is a real problem which the Islamic movement have created by their answer to the dualism between clan and nation. Latter on, we'll discuss how this problem can be solved and will satisfy every Somali group.
Despite the fragmented structure of the Islamic movement, all propagate for one idea: To Govern the lands of Somalis with the Islamic law. Thats their main goal, and what they have propagated constantly. The whole movement operates around this notion of Islamic law been implemented in Somalia and ruled by it.
The question we need to answer is how can we come to terms with this Islamic movement? This is more pressing since the Islamic movement has spread itself throughout whole of South Somalia and will have no problem to break into Northern Somalia once Ethiopians and other external actors are defeated.
I'll explain this in the coming post. In the meantime, be patient, read carefully, try to comprehend the linkages between the different posts, and stay tuned. Do not jump to conclusions and accusations.
They are one of the many countless factions fighting for political power. What makes them different is that their ideology is based on ruling/governing Somalia with Islamic law, while most other factions are clan-factions who want to bring back Somalia but with their own clan in the ruling seat.
For example, since the different clan-factions fight for political power with their clan in the ruling seat how can we be sure that these clan-factions will not intertwine themselves with the Islamic movement in order to fight for the same old goal (political power with the own clan in the ruling seat) but within the Islamic movement? This is a real suspicion that many Somalis have against the Islamic movement, namely that a particular clan will dominate this movement by manoeuvring itself in that position and will then dominate the other clans under the cover of ''Islamic movement''. This is a real problem which the Islamic movement have created by their answer to the dualism between clan and nation. Latter on, we'll discuss how this problem can be solved and will satisfy every Somali group.
These two points is what stood out for me. So I would like to add my two cents to this on going thread.
First and for most the So called Islamic Movement that took place in South Somlaia is one that was welcome by the Somali masses. Even I a supported of our federal Government welcomed this Movenment with open hands. But as a human being you will ask yourself many questions. One of the Questions I asked mysefl was... If the masses in Mogadishu were this smart why is such a movenment accuring now and not the last 17 years. It was frankly to late because the Somali People iyo the International Community have found their answer to the Somali crisis and that was a Federal Government that presented the whole of Somalia. The TFG.
To me and to many other the ICU was formed not to be a solution to Somalia problems but to destoryed our newly found dawlad.
The ICU failed to answer the critical qestion of even their followers had ? Which was real suspicion of a sorten qabil gaining power through the banner of Islam. At the end our suspicions became true and the ICU is no more.
At the end the ICU has proven to be no different than that of the countless factions fighting for political power who want to bring back Somalia but with their own clan in the ruling seat.
To me and to many other the ICU was formed not to be a solution to Somalia problems but to destoryed our newly found dawlad.
At the end the ICU has proven to be no different than that of the countless factions fighting for political power who want to bring back Somalia but with their own clan in the ruling seat.
The sheer hypocricy.
Th puppet regime is nothing but a faction, a weak, dying faction to be sure. When compared to the ICU one cannot help but to see how the puppet regime is composed of warlords, the defeated Mogadishu warlords are still called ''member of Parlement'' The ''president'' is a warlord.
The Islamic movement existed since 1991, the Gedo, Bari, Lower Shabelle campaigns were just prelude to the biggest takeover: Mogadishu anno 2006. That was the real ignition point for the Islamic movement, and they have only become stronger after 80.000 Ethiopian troops and American bombardements have proved to be incapable in crushing the movement.
PS: the spokespersons of the puppet regime are undesired in this discussion about Somalia's political development. Those who in one way or the other sweettalk the Ethiopian occupation have no right to be included in discussions concerning the creation of a strong Somalia.
one cannot help but to see how the puppet regime is composed of warlords, the defeated Mogadishu warlords are still called ''member of Parlement'' The ''president'' is a warlord.
Love your Logic ninyaho.
So if the defeated Mogadishu War_lords are called "members of Parlement" I wonder what the winner are called? Perphaps they are given titles that don't belong to them like Sheikh Indacade iyo Sheikh Dahir Aweys just a thought.
The Somali People weren't born yesterday Somaliweyn.
It wasn't the TFG nor the Somali people who picked a fight with Ethiopia it was the USC/ICU who declared war on Africa strongest army. Fight your own battles ninyaho and stop using our good name.
Not only are your delusional but you're nothing more than a hawiye clanist, people like you are what's holding somalia back, and you have no place in rebuilding somalia. You and those think emotionally like you are malignant tumors. The TFG like it or not is a major player in somalia and no amount of 'cyber ranting/pmsing' on your end is gonna stop that.
The only solution for the somali problem is the Djbouti peace process that has been signed by the government and sheekh sharif and the ARS. and if given a chance it will succeed inshallah.
Right now, what we need is UN troops and peacekeepers and the ethiopians to leave, once they do hopefully a smaller government will be formed instead of a bloated government, and each region will take care of themselves, a building blocks approach is the only way forward. I think Puntland and somaliland have shown what small regions can do by themselves, if the people have the will.
If the people in mogadisho do no want a government, the capital should be moved to baydhabo and other peace loving regions.
Anyways this is all long term goals, right now the biggest obstacle to somali peace is al shabab moryans who kill innocents, and they must be disarmed at all costs.
Rebelion and Somalianboqor will all due respect this is not an argument, its simply a topic to better understand Somaliweyn perspective on Somalia and issues concerning it. Quite honestly, I don't wish to hear how the TFG can further work, thats it strong, or how it will unite the people this is not the reason for my topic. Mahadsanid.
Somaliweyn, I think there is a lot of suspicion of the Islamic movement, their motives, their actions all are concerns of the populace and reasons as to why they don't have their full support of the public unlike when they first really came [back] into the scene in 2006 after the defeat of the Muqdisho warlords. Many see the movement as an hijacked one, a political tool, like you mentioned, used to gain political power. I have an analysis of how or if the populace can come to terms with this certain Islamic movement, but I will wait for further analysis from you.
