I dare 2 say Ahmed Gurey was not Somali

[admin]

cawar this debate will go on well after we are all gone unless it is proven scientifically....

Admin, I argued fiercely about this fact few yrs ago..back then when the forum was all about great debates and clashing points..of course all in a civil way.

But I never bothered since..and the fact that few kids who arent well read arguing about his qabil and other non relevant issues didnt help either.

Simple fact.. despite all the other evidences ad giveaways ...which somali leader was named Imaam Ahmed Ibrahim Al-Gaazi at the time???? or any arabic sounding name? none I believe.
PS. I just opened a bandora's box again..lets wait for those who would say the name is not sufficient enough eevidence about his Arabness.

[Voltage]

Every time I see this subject I am reminded of an incident with two of my little cousins. I had two pieces of candy for them but I hid one and told them I only had one. I spoke to the older of the two privately and said I only have one candy so let me give it to your brother who is younger than you.

He said "no! It either I get or none of us gets it."

Science is never accurate. You keep trying until you nail something but there are stages and conclusive evidence has already been brought which not only proves the Imam's Somaliness but as well as points him towards certain sub-sections of the Somali people.

It is my observation that the stronger the research pinpointing the Imam's clan background has gotten, the stronger people were not only theorizing but vehemently defending the assertion the Imam was not Somali at all. Notice if they left it at the Imam was not from the clan cited in the research, they would be forced to proof why they came to that conclusion if they wanted to be taken legitimately and proof is something they did not and do not have.

I just think its sad how petty Somalis are. They would rather deny the Somali nation the glory of the Imam, without any scientific or even INTELLECTUAL position or reasoning, then allow him to be named a clan other then theirs.

Then again, is that not why I am in the U.S? Didn't Somalis destroy their own country and people rather than the "other" clan fill the presidential seat?

Disgusting and primitive creatures.

[Navy9]

No matter how much u think he was..
No matter what your grand daddy told u...
the guy was qat chewing yemeni.

If you read the book, Conquering Abyssinia i mean between the lines, this man was NOT Somali. He was Arab, probably Yemeni. The evidence is in my car's glove compartment. He was a great leader because he used to listen to his peers and make decisions by what the majority wanted.

One time the author of the book says "All Muslims AND Somali tribes" as if Somalis were not real Muslims @ that time.

Good Point.

[abdirisak22]

Ahmed was at least half Somali, i believe the Arab fiqi mentioned at least once the Garad of Harla was his maternal uncle and Harla was seperate nation which is undoubtedly was Afar people.
We need someone who read the Arabic version of Futtuh, I always believed Ahmed Gurey was either Marehan or Gerri.

[admin]

guys,

It is sometimes suicidal in our society to challenge the general consensus. Our culture teaches not to question elders and those who possess more knowledge, especially in religion. We followed our forefathers' steps obediently to a point where we adore them and fight anyone who questions their actions or what they told us to believe.

Debating on subjects like this in a constructive way can educate all of us. What I knew about Ahmed Gurey before now was limited to what I was led to believe in my childhood. His Somali tribe is secondary and can only be valid if he's proved to be Somali. I started this thread because the previous one on this subject was deviated from its original purpose and this man's ethnicity dominated it to the end. I thought he was Somali at that time. However, with due all respect, this book which was written by someone who was present at the time gives more ammunition to opponents of this idea of him being Somali. I was never interested in this part of our history until someone told me about this book's existence and I never questioned his Somaliness before now. According to what I've read, Ahmed Gurey did not live among Somalis and had nothing to do with them except share with them a common religion and enemy.

Does anyone know any written literature that ties him to Somalia?

[James Dahl]

It's interesting actually. Ahmad ibn Ibrahim al-Ghazi was a Belew, who's family had lived in Jabart (Adal, Ifat, the Eritrean coast and Somali territory) for some time. The Belew are one of the Beja tribes of Sudan, and his family migrated down into Jabart after the Caliphate conquered the Red Sea coast from Massawa to Mogadishu.

Yes, the Caliphate conquered the whole coast. I know, I didn't know this either until relatively recently, they conquered it in around 640.

Anyways, Ahmad's family were the hereditery Garaads of Hubat, and minor nobility in Ifat and later Adel. He rose to prominence when Mahfuz, Imam of Adal and his father in law, was killed by Ibrahim ibn Ahmed, who coincidentally was Ahmed ibn Ibrahim's father, and ruled for three months before being killed himself. His son, Ahmad, managed to gather together enough forces to place a puppet sultan under his control on the throne.

This is conclusively proven in two official correspondence that have survived to the modern day. In one, the Abyssianian general Wasan Sagad who killed his brother Garaad Abun boasts of doing so and lists both Ahmad and Garaad Abun as sons of the same Garaad Ibrahim of Hubat. The Futuh, the second source, mentions Garaad Ibrahim of Hubat as Ahmad's father on two seperate occasions.

The Somali connection to Ahmad is twofold, one is an error and the other is a matter of interpretation.

The royal family of Adal was descended from Yuusuf Aw Barkadle, also known as al-Kawnayn and al-Ikhwaan, who was the brother of Sheikh Isaaq. Isaaq know there is a relation there, but due to incomplete genealogies for both men they are largely unaware of quite how close the relation is. The other connection is a man who has the same name that Somalis call Ahmed, Ahmed Gurey. One of the commanders in the Futuh al-Habasha is a Habar Magadle Akil by the name of Axmed Gurey Xuseen, who is explicitly stated to be Somali. The futuh never refers to Ahmed ibn Ibrahim al-Ghazi as "Ahmed Gurey" only his commander is referred to as such.

Thus the longstanding claim that Adal and it's famous warrior Imam were Isaaq. One the one hand you could say the royal family were and still are, but only if you go up one generation to be Banu Ahmad (the father of Yuusuf and Isaaq). Thus, when Isaaq look for their kinsman Ahmed Gurey in the Futuh, they find him, Axmed Gurey Xuseen. It isn't the right Ahmed though...

[Shirib]

Admin,

Go back to the original topic and read the first post after yours and thats the answer to all your questions

[Padishah]

Look, gentlemen. You all are clearly in manifest error.

The great man was none other than a Majeerteen, Cumar Mahamoud, Reer Hersi through and through.

So lay off claiming my uncle.

[James Dahl]

Look, gentlemen. You all are clearly in manifest error.

The great man was none other than a Majeerteen, Cumar Mahamoud, Reer Hersi through and through.

So lay off claiming my uncle.

Cumar Mahamuud is barely 200 years old, the Futuh al-Habasha takes place in the late 1500s.

[Twisted_Logic]

The Admin is very right. I will comprehensively put to rest inshallah in few hours when I get to my crib.

[Voltage]

Admin, I really don't want to pick on your intelligence but the Futah is but a single narration with as many inconsistencies within the book as facts. Books like that, especially without a lot of competition or wider points of view, are supposed to serve as an INSIGHT, a general overview and not exactly the holy text on the issue.

Just couple months ago in one of my classes, I had to read two different books on Lincoln one which gave proof his natural conscientious objective was to free the slaves and one which argued because the Emancipation Proclamation was directed at non-Union states it was for political expediency. Both used first hand records and sources and still such different thesis.

I mean come on when do Somalis learn what everyone else in 6th grade?? Forgoodssake use your logic people!

The most important thing one needs to analyze is the fact that the Imam's sister was the mother of his Marehan nephew Emir Nuur.

Emir Nuur is recorded as being the "Second Conquerer" and the man who avenged the death of Ahmed Gurey.

If Ahmed Gurey was "an Arab man from Yemen" who just happened to live around Harrar as you ridiculously insinuated, why would his sister being living there and married to a Marehan chieftain??

First this proves Imam Ahmed was a man of the land, with an indefinite link to Somalis, whose sisters are proven to be the mothers of Somali men and not a "visiting qat-chewing Yemeni" as you insinuated.

Secondly, his widow was married by a Somali and the Empire continued to be administered by a Somali. Preceding, as well Adal was administered by Somali men including Emir Nuur's father was the sultan of Harrar prior to the Imam.

Do all these things not correlate between themselves??

It is mind boggling how tribalistic malice makes Somalis lose all natural reasoning.

p.s. Don't take this as a particular attack on you, it is a general criticism of the level of ignorance shown in this forum ever since the research started piling in...

[admin]

kamb yep, Ghazi = warrior
Ghazu = warriors.

Shirib - thnx

Twisted

Voltage, what intelligence are we talking about? The original book is the closest to the reality. It may not be perfect or suit your logic, but it is as close is it can get. Your argument is like when when someone with a certain religion is asked to do a research on what critics say about his religion. The conclusion would obviously be predictable - like yea, the critics say that BUT, The whole report would be crisscrossed with BUT. Now, let's put your, mine and everyone's preconceptions and tackle these opposing ideas using whatever tools we have to backup our arguments.

Again, according to all scholars who studied this era in east Africa, the original Arabic Version is the de facto and most important source.

You said he was married to a Marehan wife. How did you get that information? I didn't finish the whole book but his first wife couldn't be Marehan or any other Somali tribe.
His wife was from the locals and Somalis did not inhabit the area. Marehans lived in Somali land and their chief who had many frictions with Ahmed Gurey was called Hirabu. When Ahmed Gurey was recruiting Somalis, he sent messengers to SOMALI LAND or the land Somalis inhabit. Then Mr. Hirabu refused to send men to the imam unless he's paid. When all other tribes sent men except Mr. Hirabu, Ahmed Gurey was so angry and threatened to send his army to deal with Hirabu and his tribe. Finally, Mr. Hirabu comes on board. Then he kills someone and runs off with some loot. Then Imam Ahmed sends messengers to Somali land to convince Mr. Hirabu to return the loot and pay the blood money. He was threatened with invasion. With all that and many other other references, not a single time was mentioned Ahmed Gurey being Somali or having Somali mother or wife. So bro Voltage, let's put aside our convictions and use whatever information available to agree or disagree on this subject.

To the everyone else, I know some ppl hate me for questioning the popular believe - all I can say is what is your argument aside from what you were told? even if your version is right, it has been changed overtime. Oral history changes with time.

[Ni Hao]

aniga jiritaanka ahmed guray ayaaba shaki iga jiraa ,,let alone whether he is somali or arab,,,

loool

[Hyperactive]

admin, i read the book in arabic and i havent see any hint he was a somali
leave alone about his clan.

wan iska amusay, somalis could be offeded if you disagree what they parents told them or what they have told by their kins.
since i didnt see any importance regarding his qabiil or what ethnic group he was.

i enjoyed the piece of the history of that era in horn africa region and that's about it.

[admin]

Thnx hyper.... that's our somali nature I started this topic because an earlier one about the book was turned into hot topic on his somali tribe... NOW, joined the fray and challenged his somaliness, let alone tribe. It was never important to me either but obviously it is to many

admin, i read the book in arabic and i havent see any hint he was a somali
leave alone about his clan.

wan iska amusay, somalis could be offeded if you disagree what they parents told them or what they have told by their kins.
since i didnt see any importance regarding his qabiil or what ethnic group he was.

i enjoyed the piece of the history of that era in horn africa region and that's about it.